Sllim Pickens Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 12 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said: Nine of the top 10 coverage defenses and 10 of the top 15 made the playoffs. I don't think this gets us any closer. It's all a bit anecdotal, isn't it? And, again, I'm not an analytics guy - I'm not nearly smart enough - but the argument has been made elsewhere. I always believed that pass-rush was the answer, but recent numbers tend to argue otherwise. Also, in the studies comparing coverage to pass rush effectiveness, it was always determined that coverage success is primarily the success of the unit as a whole, whereas pass rush is more individualized, hence DEs and DTs that rush the passer getting paid more than DBs. Its easier to plug DBs into a system, obviously not trash but average, than it is to get success from a DE. Also elite pass rush is more sustainable and repeatable compared to elite coverage. The impact of an elite CB compared to that of an elite DE are vastly different, and therefore should be taken into consideration when drafting. Yes both are important, yes talent matters, but also it is easier to fins serviceable DBs than pass rushers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 26 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said: Per PFF, its 5 of the top 10 that made the playoffs. And 8 of the top 15. And zero of the top 3 (unlike the pass rush which was 4 of the top 5) No matter the system, if you allow a QB to sit and pick you apart, they will. They will find the weakness and exploit it. It may not be your #1 CB they attack, but they can much easier wait for your #2/3 CB to slip in coverage. If they dont have time to wait, they have to make quick decisions. Yes both are important. No you can't win with one being trash and the other being great. But having a pass rush will always be more beneficial than DBs. If we're using PFF - which I'm not against doing - it's their argument that I'm referring to. A large part of their argument is how quick passes can largely neutralize a great pass-rush, as coverage always plays a role. I disagree with the part in bold, and my argument would be the part in italics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sllim Pickens Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 2 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said: If we're using PFF - which I'm not against doing - it's their argument that I'm referring to. A large part of their argument is how quick passes can largely neutralize a great pass-rush, as coverage always plays a role. I disagree with the part in bold, and my argument would be the part in italics. But our pass rush was one of the worst in the NFL (was the worst in the NFL in 2019). It is trash. We have talent at CB. Both high picks and mid rounders that have shown promise. At DE/DT we have nothing. Okwara had some sacks but if he didnt get home, he disappeared. Flowers was a horrible pass rusher. The DTs haven't got pressure since Suh left. Even if we cut a couple DBs, we are in a better spot at CB than we are on the D line as far as pass rushers go. Our CBs will always underperform if we do not put a pass rush with it. Its too easy for QBs to sit and rip us apart with no threat of being hit. Now some of that is scheme related, with Patricia being a fan of only rushing 4 every down, but it also lies on our D line to get home or at least cause the QB to make quick decisions and throw before they are comfortable. Again, I have seen studies, but also have seen guys like Mahomes and Brady and Rodgers not play well when they are getting beat up and having no time to throw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NFL_Fan Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 PASS RUSH IS EVERYTHING.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 4 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said: But our pass rush was one of the worst in the NFL (was the worst in the NFL in 2019). It is trash. We have talent at CB. Both high picks and mid rounders that have shown promise. At DE/DT we have nothing. Okwara had some sacks but if he didnt get home, he disappeared. Flowers was a horrible pass rusher. The DTs haven't got pressure since Suh left. Even if we cut a couple DBs, we are in a better spot at CB than we are on the D line as far as pass rushers go. Our CBs will always underperform if we do not put a pass rush with it. Its too easy for QBs to sit and rip us apart with no threat of being hit. Now some of that is scheme related, with Patricia being a fan of only rushing 4 every down, but it also lies on our D line to get home or at least cause the QB to make quick decisions and throw before they are comfortable. Again, I have seen studies, but also have seen guys like Mahomes and Brady and Rodgers not play well when they are getting beat up and having no time to throw. I mean, our coverage was one of the worst in the NFL as well. Flowers struggled, but you mentioned Patricia: he didn't just rush four... he often rushed three. I thought the scheme was horrible. I keep clarifying my stance, but I guess I'll just ask you: if we're on the clock at #7, and the BPA is a CB, and we don't have quality offers to move down, what would you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 9 minutes ago, NFL_Fan said: PASS RUSH IS EVERYTHING.. The top 5 teams in the NFL in 2020, ranked by pass-rush grades: 1. Pittsburgh Steelers 2. Philadelphia Eagles 3. Los Angeles Rams 4. Chicago Bears 5. Washington Football Team Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sllim Pickens Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 2 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said: I mean, our coverage was one of the worst in the NFL as well. Flowers struggled, but you mentioned Patricia: he didn't just rush four... he often rushed three. I thought the scheme was horrible. I keep clarifying my stance, but I guess I'll just ask you: if we're on the clock at #7, and the BPA is a CB, and we don't have quality offers to move down, what would you do? That depends. If we have Farley or Surtain at a 90 and Rosseau, or Paye, or Oweh, or Parsons etc are at an 89.5, I am taking the bigger need. If we have one of them as a 99 and the next best as an 89, then you take the easily better talent. Based on everything I have seen, there isnt a prospect close to Okudah's level as a prospect in this draft at CB. I don't see a significant gap between CB and DL/LB/OL in the range we pick in. I get not reaching to fill a hole, but if there are similar talents ata bigger need, I am taking it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 2 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said: That depends. If we have Farley or Surtain at a 90 and Rosseau, or Paye, or Oweh, or Parsons etc are at an 89.5, I am taking the bigger need. If we have one of them as a 99 and the next best as an 89, then you take the easily better talent. Based on everything I have seen, there isnt a prospect close to Okudah's level as a prospect in this draft at CB. I don't see a significant gap between CB and DL/LB/OL in the range we pick in. I get not reaching to fill a hole, but if there are similar talents ata bigger need, I am taking it. Definitely. I don't think many would disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NFL_Fan Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 5 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said: The top 5 teams in the NFL in 2020, ranked by pass-rush grades: 1. Pittsburgh Steelers 2. Philadelphia Eagles 3. Los Angeles Rams 4. Chicago Bears 5. Washington Football Team bucs are number 5 in sacks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NFL_Fan Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 Just now, NFL_Fan said: bucs are number 5 in sacks bucs #2 in qb hits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NFL_Fan Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 Washington and steelers also led nfl with most picks at 18..also dolphins and saints Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 Just now, NFL_Fan said: bucs are number 5 in sacks And the Cardinals were tied with them. Pass-rushing productivity isn't solely about sack totals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NFL_Fan Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 Just now, TL-TwoWinsAway said: And the Cardinals were tied with them. Pass-rushing productivity isn't solely about sack totals. wait are the cardinals not a good team to you? you realize they are better then any lions team...ever...in history...they are in the toughest division rn.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 1 minute ago, NFL_Fan said: wait are the cardinals not a good team to you? you realize they are better then any lions team...ever...in history...they are in the toughest division rn.. Woah. Lots to unpack here. The Cardinals were a pretty good team, but I don't believe you actually think that the 8-8 Cardinals are better than "any lions team...ever...in history". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NFL_Fan Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 21 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said: Woah. Lots to unpack here. The Cardinals were a pretty good team, but I don't believe you actually think that the 8-8 Cardinals are better than "any lions team...ever...in history". so answer the question..and the list you provided...kinda shows one thing...YOU NEED A QB.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.