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What's the consensus about what's wrong with Lamar's pass game?


sledgehammer

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35 minutes ago, sledgehammer said:

If any? His accuracy? His arm strength? His decision making? 

I've seen him make some great throws (long, accurate into tight windows), so it seems to me he's simply not reading some defences well. 

I don't really see anything wrong (his mechanics are a bit spotty at times, but that's not a huge issue) but he - like many young QBs - has consistency issues. 

He's done more than most with the physical gifts he's got at his disposal, and they're not really going anywhere at his age - so that consistently could show up with TLC.

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I think you need to take the good with the bad. They need to make a concerted effort to give him some more consistent outside weapons, but until he makes throws outside the numbers regularly, he won’t ever be “that guy”...and it may not matter. Or...maybe it will. Their defense and run game are elite. If they can get their passing game to average or better, then maybe that’s all they need.

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Consistency, occasionally trying too hard, not having a ton of support

The running game is great (although much of that should be credited to himself), but his pass blocking was suspect, and he doesn't have receivers that get open and make plays. I sincerely that that (with the exception of Darnold) he is working with the least supporting talent of any of the young QBs. 

Getting Ronnie Stanley back and adding a legit #1 would do wonders for him, along with a little better decision making when pressed

He takes some big losses, but I think that's sometimes just the price of admission for some of the spectacular plays he makes. It would definitely be nice if he had that ability to get the ball away in some of those scenarios though

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While I do not see him being the Mahomes, Allen, or Watson of the AFC I do think Lamar is being held back. Coming from a couple of years of experiencing Greg Roman's offenses, while great for the run, very predictable in the pass. Lamar has the weapons so it's not the issue of that, yes he needs to find someone be the #1 wr on the team as brown is not that, but overall the weapons are not the issue. Like some say Lamar is way to often on the run because it is an easy safety net and when you have an offense in which the defenses already plan for it can be easy to force him to go off script and run the ball. He is always going to be a qb who will count more on his legs then his passing ability based on his skill set being better in that sense then his passing. The OC needs to come up with ways where his passing plays are not expected and to be more exotic then vanilla. Lamar may not have the accuracy but Greg Roman is likely the reason why he is struggling and will continue to struggle. Dont be surprised come week 5-6 if Ravens are struggling offensively yet still contenders Roman gets the axe.

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There's like 2-3 threads in the Ravens subforum where we've discussed this at a premium if you're interested in going in there and seeing what the actual people who watch every snap of him playing have to say.

But essentially it boils down to:

  • Lamar not being a good deep ball thrower in the first place
  • The passing scheme being absolutely god awful
  • WR's not helping (nobody able to win 1v1 matchups or contested catches)

Lamar makes mistakes when he tries to play hero ball and put it all on himself. When he plays within the scheme and takes what defenses give him, he's got it. We've seen him consistently go through progressions, find open WR's, make every type of throw you can make - of course the main issue with Lamar himself is consistency. One game he'll be dotting up the entire field, the next he's missing basic throws and making everything look hard.

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Its the lack of separation from outside WRs. The route combinations aren’t schemed to get guys open unless their across the middle. Maybe the scheme is due to the lack of talent. He needs a guy on the outside he can trust to win his 1 on 1. He doesnt have that. Murray, Allen, Mahomes, Brady, Wilson, and Rodgers have that. Wonder if Ravens sign AB next year 

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1 hour ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

There's like 2-3 threads in the Ravens subforum where we've discussed this at a premium if you're interested in going in there and seeing what the actual people who watch every snap of him playing have to say.

But essentially it boils down to:

  • Lamar not being a good deep ball thrower in the first place
  • The passing scheme being absolutely god awful
  • WR's not helping (nobody able to win 1v1 matchups or contested catches)

Lamar makes mistakes when he tries to play hero ball and put it all on himself. When he plays within the scheme and takes what defenses give him, he's got it. We've seen him consistently go through progressions, find open WR's, make every type of throw you can make - of course the main issue with Lamar himself is consistency. One game he'll be dotting up the entire field, the next he's missing basic throws and making everything look hard.

Tbh I'm not sure I completely agree with this. Or rather - points 2 and 3 are undoubtedly true, but that's a separate conversation about what the team needs to do to better build around Lamar rather than what Lamar needs to do himself to improve, though there's some interconnectedness in there - for example, a better passing scheme where Lamar himself trusts guys to get open would go a long ways towards getting him better at anticipating windows and getting the ball out quicker. 

I disagree with your point 1 above about him not being a good deep ball thrower because i think the issues we see sometimes with the deep passing game have more to do with his mechanics breaking down under pressure sometimes - particularly on these longer developing plays - rather than him not actually being able to make those throws. For the purposes of this thread I'll just re-post what I said in the Lamar thread in our forum rather than re-writing it. For me the biggest thing Lamar needs to improve on is how he deals with pressure.

Quote

 

Taken together I think they just get at where Lamar needs to focus a lot of energy this offseason, which is improving how to play against pressure. I've been watching through some of the film breakdowns of the Titans and Bills playoff games and it sticks out like a sore thumb how rattled Lamar got by the pressure, particularly against BUF.

There were a number of plays like the one highlighted in this Edgar Allen video where he just let the pressure influence him too easily into bad and missed throws. It seemed like there was a just a complete breakdown in him trusting the line - which was understandable given how badly they were playing - to the point where if the defense was showing blitz he was practically scrambling from the moment the ball was snapped because he didn't trust the blocking to hold up, which messed with the timing and led to a lot of back foot/off balance difficult throws that could have been easier.

Better blocking up front will certainly help, but it's also something Lamar needs to get better at on his end in terms of recognizing where pressure is going to come from and using that against the defense. It's also something Roman needs to scheme better against - interior pressure in particular seems to blow up our offense way too easily because the built-in 'checkdown' on a lot of our passing plays isn't actually a pass but is instead Lamar scrambling, and pressure from the right place can take that away or at least turn it into a situation where Lamar has to make a superhuman play just to avoid a loss of yards. 

 

--

For the organization, this offseason needs to be all about revamping the passing scheme and better surrounding Lamar with weapons that he has trust with, and then just getting the reps in to make sure the chemistry and timing is there. For Lamar, the single biggest thing I want to see him work on is making sure he's more consistent with his mechanics, particularly under pressure. 

Edited by SalvadorsDeli
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3 hours ago, Tk3 said:

Consistency, occasionally trying too hard, not having a ton of support

The running game is great (although much of that should be credited to himself), but his pass blocking was suspect, and he doesn't have receivers that get open and make plays. [b]I sincerely that that (with the exception of Darnold) he is working with the least supporting talent of any of the young QBs.[/b]

Getting Ronnie Stanley back and adding a legit #1 would do wonders for him, along with a little better decision making when pressed

He takes some big losses, but I think that's sometimes just the price of admission for some of the spectacular plays he makes. It would definitely be nice if he had that ability to get the ball away in some of those scenarios though

Depends if we’re talking just WRs or the whole OL supporting cast.
 

If just WRs, only Tua has it worse. 

If also including OL/RBs/TEs, he has it better than pretty much all of them like Herbert, Burrow, Darnold, Kyler, Watson, etc. Allen & Baker are the exception, but unlike Baker & the rest of these young QBs not named Allen, they don’t have a top defense to lean on like Lamar.

Edited by ClutchDJ
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35 minutes ago, ClutchDJ said:

Depends if we’re talking just WRs or the whole OL supporting cast.
 

If just WRs, only Tua has it worse. 

If also including OL/RBs/TEs, he has it better than pretty much all of them like Herbert, Burrow, Darnold, Kyler, Watson, etc. Allen & Baker are the exception, but unlike Baker & the rest of these young QBs not named Allen, they don’t have a top defense to lean on like Lamar.

idk man..

I mean.. OL is tough, because its not super easy for regular people like me to evaluate, but to my understanding the Ravens OL was middle of the pack at best, and it was on the strength of run blocking. It might be better than Jets/Chargers/Bengals, sure.. but when we are talking about pass protection I would say its only marginally better

  • Dolphins
    • Parker is FAR better than any Ravens WR, and Gesicki helps to bridge the gap versus Andrews. I'll agree that Lamar has a better cast than Tua - although Tua has proven far less than Lamar has in the passing game
  • Jets
    • Worse situation than Lamar.. hands down. Darnold has been disappointing, but has had zero support
  • Bengals
    • There's no doubt that their line was awful.. but Burrow has at least 2 WRs better than the Ravens best, and at least 4 WR better than the Ravens #2. Mixon is also better than any RB on the Ravens roster
  • Browns
    • Not even worth debating, Baker has a strong cast around him
  • Chargers
    • Agreed that they have a poor OL, but Keenan Allen is top 10 in the NFL, Mike Williams is better than any Ravens WR, Andrews is better than Hunter Henry, but its not a gigantic gap, and having someone like Ekelar would be a DREAM for a Lamar. I don't think I'm buying Lamar having a better cast than the Chargers... like, at all
  • Giants
    • Giants suck, and with Barkley out Daniel Jones has very little help
  • Cardinals
    • Like the Browns, they have a ton of talent around Kyler.. I have no idea how you name them as a team that has less support

 

Bad franchises are bad. The Jets and Giants are a mess and their QBs have no shot.. I'm not arguing with that at all. But all the other teams have much more significant options for their young QB.

I think Allen and Kyler are great examples for how much a great WR can unlock in the passing game

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1 hour ago, Tk3 said:

idk man..

I mean.. OL is tough, because its not super easy for regular people like me to evaluate, but to my understanding the Ravens OL was middle of the pack at best, and it was on the strength of run blocking. It might be better than Jets/Chargers/Bengals, sure.. but when we are talking about pass protection I would say its only marginally better

  • Dolphins
    • Parker is FAR better than any Ravens WR, and Gesicki helps to bridge the gap versus Andrews. I'll agree that Lamar has a better cast than Tua - although Tua has proven far less than Lamar has in the passing game
  • Jets
    • Worse situation than Lamar.. hands down. Darnold has been disappointing, but has had zero support
  • Bengals
    • There's no doubt that their line was awful.. but Burrow has at least 2 WRs better than the Ravens best, and at least 4 WR better than the Ravens #2. Mixon is also better than any RB on the Ravens roster
  • Browns
    • Not even worth debating, Baker has a strong cast around him
  • Chargers
    • Agreed that they have a poor OL, but Keenan Allen is top 10 in the NFL, Mike Williams is better than any Ravens WR, Andrews is better than Hunter Henry, but its not a gigantic gap, and having someone like Ekelar would be a DREAM for a Lamar. I don't think I'm buying Lamar having a better cast than the Chargers... like, at all
  • Giants
    • Giants suck, and with Barkley out Daniel Jones has very little help
  • Cardinals
    • Like the Browns, they have a ton of talent around Kyler.. I have no idea how you name them as a team that has less support

 

Bad franchises are bad. The Jets and Giants are a mess and their QBs have no shot.. I'm not arguing with that at all. But all the other teams have much more significant options for their young QB.

I think Allen and Kyler are great examples for how much a great WR can unlock in the passing game

At full health, I think the Ravens OL is a lot better than any other team on here. Lamar does make them look better, but I do think they’re still an overall good unit.

- I don’t think Parker is THAT much better than Hollywood. Hollywood has his problems, but the system he plays in also doesn’t help at all. Also a bonus that he’s a great playoff performer so far.

- Jets, agreed.

- I agree with the weapons, but the Bengals’ OLine is so far behind that it’s pretty much a wash.

- Chargers’ OLine is worse than the Bengals’ OLine, which is incredible. Keenan is awesome, but Mike Williams is extremely overrated. At least with Hollywood, he could separate from a chair. I think Mike Williams would look straight up bad on the Ravens. Ekeler is the better WR, but Dobbins is the better RB. I think that it’s close to call.

- Giants, agreed.

- Cardinals are not even in the same ballpark as the Browns when it comes to talent. Cards have a good LT, but the interior OL is mediocre. Cards’ WRs after Nuk is washed up Fitz, underwhelming Christian Kirk, & bust Isabella. Take Nuk off this team & the Ravens would have a better receiving core off of Hollywood & Andrews alone imo. Only consistently good players outside of Kyler are Nuk, Edmonds, & Humphries. Think you’re vastly overrating this Cards team.


 

I like a lot Lamar a lot, but I’m not gonna downplay the talent around him so hard to make it seem like he’s carrying guys that worked at Best Buy. Lamar was/is also blessed with a top ranked defense which creates a smaller margin for error. Great coaching as well. Outside of Allen, none of these other QBs can say that.

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