What's the consensus about what's wrong with Lamar's pass game?

[AngusMcFife]

One thing I've noticed is that Lamar has 2 kinds of throwing mechanics: 
1) a quick release, often sidearm throw that is accurate and effective over the middle. Lamar really doesn't need to be set to throw this way.
2) a "traditional" throw that is more over the top, and uses weight transfer from back to front. 

Last year I noticed he would sometimes throw inaccurately when he would use his quick release mechanics throwing passes to the sidelines, particularly deeper routes. 

So while I think his quick release passes are excellent short and over the middle, he needs to both improve his accuracy with the traditional throwing motion and also use the different throwing motions at appropriate times (i.e. don't overuse the quick release on deeper/sideline throws). 

These are Lamar-specific observations. His WRs need work, and the O-line was much better in 2019 than 2020, and Roman isn't good at passing concepts, too. 

[Tk3]

12 minutes ago, ClutchDJ said:

At full health, I think the Ravens OL is a lot better than any other team on here. Lamar does make them look better, but I do think they’re still an overall good unit.

- I don’t think Parker is THAT much better than Hollywood. Hollywood has his problems, but the system he plays in also doesn’t help at all. Also a bonus that he’s a great playoff performer so far.

- Jets, agreed.

- I agree with the weapons, but the Bengals’ OLine is so far behind that it’s pretty much a wash.

- Chargers’ OLine is worse than the Bengals’ OLine, which is incredible. Keenan is awesome, but Mike Williams is extremely overrated. At least with Hollywood, he could separate from a chair. I think Mike Williams would look straight up bad on the Ravens. Ekeler is the better WR, but Dobbins is the better RB. I think that it’s close to call.

- Giants, agreed.

- Cardinals are not even in the same ballpark as the Browns when it comes to talent. Cards have a good LT, but the interior OL is mediocre. Cards’ WRs after Nuk is washed up Fitz, underwhelming Christian Kirk, & bust Isabella. Take Nuk off this team & the Ravens would have a better receiving core off of Hollywood & Andrews alone imo. Only consistently good players outside of Kyler are Nuk, Edmonds, & Humphries. Think you’re vastly overrating this Cards team.

 

I like a lot Lamar a lot, but I’m not gonna downplay the talent around him so hard to make it seem like he’s carrying guys that worked at Best Buy. Lamar was/is also blessed with a top ranked defense which creates a smaller margin for error. Great coaching as well. Outside of Allen, none of these other QBs can say that.

We definitely don't seem to agree on Hollywood - but maybe we're splitting hairs here and arguing over something that isn't even the question

To go back to the OP, if you want to know what's wrong with Lamar's passing game, I think a big part of it is that he is asked to do too much in totality. Receivers being capable of getting open on short to intermediate routes would be gigantic. He has that in Mark Andrews, and that's it. And even Andrews strength is more about extending plays and making contested catches on linebackers as opposed to route running and getting open on first read.

That's not to say he is without fault. He could improve decision making for sure and have better accuracy, but generally speaking he gets the ball where it needs to go. The problem is I truly believe his windows are so much tighter than what we see around the league. If Lamar had players who get open like Kelce does, for example, I don't think we would be talking nearly as much about Lamar's passing game

[Tk3]

1 minute ago, AngusMcFife said:

One thing I've noticed is that Lamar has 2 kinds of throwing mechanics: 
1) a quick release, often sidearm throw that is accurate and effective over the middle. Lamar really doesn't need to be set to throw this way.
2) a "traditional" throw that is more over the top, and uses weight transfer from back to front. 

Last year I noticed he would sometimes throw inaccurately when he would use his quick release mechanics throwing passes to the sidelines, particularly deeper routes. 

So while I think his quick release passes are excellent short and over the middle, he needs to both improve his accuracy with the traditional throwing motion and also use the different throwing motions at appropriate times (i.e. don't overuse the quick release on deeper/sideline throws). 

These are Lamar-specific observations. His WRs need work, and the O-line was much better in 2019 than 2020, and Roman isn't good at passing concepts, too. 

I definitely agree with this. That 1st Q pick against the Titans in the wildcard round comes to mind

The offense would be a lot better with more designed slants and over the middle passes. Those "quick release" type of plays. Too often I saw longer play designs where nobody gets open and he goes into improv mode. They need more passing plays that result in pass attempts before things break down - whether that is better route runners, or whether that is better play calling

[AngusMcFife]

2 minutes ago, Tk3 said:

We definitely don't seem to agree on Hollywood - but maybe we're splitting hairs here and arguing over something that isn't even the question

To go back to the OP, if you want to know what's wrong with Lamar's passing game, I think a big part of it is that he is asked to do too much in totality. Receivers being capable of getting open on short to intermediate routes would be gigantic. He has that in Mark Andrews, and that's it. And even Andrews strength is more about extending plays and making contested catches on linebackers as opposed to route running and getting open on first read.

That's not to say he is without fault. He could improve decision making for sure and have better accuracy, but generally speaking he gets the ball where it needs to go. The problem is I truly believe his windows are so much tighter than what we see around the league. If Lamar had players who get open like Kelce does, for example, I don't think we would be talking nearly as much about Lamar's passing game

There is a bit of chicken-or-the-egg issue here. Because part of the reason Kelce can get so open is that defenses fear Mahommes throwing over the top. Lamar rarely threatens the deep outer 3rds of the field, so defenses can more aggressively play the shorter routes. 

[SalvadorsDeli]

50 minutes ago, ClutchDJ said:

At full health, I think the Ravens OL is a lot better than any other team on here. Lamar does make them look better, but I do think they’re still an overall good unit.

That was true in 2019. Not so much in 2020. We never replaced Yanda and Skura was a shell of himself coming back from a serious injury. Our interior line play this year oscillated between being functional at its high points and absolutely atrocious at other points. Once Ronnie Stanley went down 5 games into the season, we basically had one good tackle and a bunch of crap along our line. There's a reason that both Harbaugh and DeCosta have already signaled that rebuilding on the O-Line is their #1 priority this offseason. Going into next year, we have great bookend tackles (if we don't trade Brown) but a ton of work to do in the interior. 

Quote

I like a lot Lamar a lot, but I’m not gonna downplay the talent around him so hard to make it seem like he’s carrying guys that worked at Best Buy. Lamar was/is also blessed with a top ranked defense which creates a smaller margin for error. Great coaching as well. Outside of Allen, none of these other QBs can say that.

Respectfully, I see a lot of the opposite happening. There's this idea that he has this incredible team around him that he was lucky to land on, or that he's so lucky to have gotten to work with Greg Roman when the reality is that Lamar has basically singlehandedly rehabilitated that guy's career and reputation. Before Lamar came along, we had been a mediocre team hovering around .500 for over a half decade and Harbaugh was on the verge of being fired. It wasn't until he walked in midseason 2018 that a flip switched pretty much overnight we started winning again with regularity. By dollars we invested the fewest amount in our offense out of any team in the league last year. He is the one making the whole thing go. 

If you took Lamar out of the equation this would be one of the worst supporting casts in the league. Hollywood and Andrews are his only targets that you could pick out of a lineup, forget being the sort of elite caliber player who helps make him better. Good but not great running backs and an obvious area where he's doing more to open things up for them than they are doing for him. A pedestrian, elementary passing scheme. Elite tackles - that's about it. In regards to having a good defense - that's true, but it's not like that's something that actively makes Lamar's life on the field that much easier, except in roundabout ways - and that's leaving aside how a ball-control, clock-killing running offense benefits defensive metrics too by keeping them fresh and helping them see less possessions a game in general, which is how the Ravens defense looks superficially elite (2nd in scoring defense) when the underlying metrics tell us they're merely good (10th in DVOA). 

That's not to say there aren't obvious ways he needs to improve, and I already went through that in my other post. But Lamar was put on a team and organization that has basically struggled to field competitive offenses for the entirety of our history and in fact has historically made a point of not investing in offensive weapons. Forget DeAndre Hopkins I'd kill just to get Jarvis Landry on the team to see what it's like to have guys who actually knows what it means to get open. He does get to play alongside a better than average defense that can help us win games, sure, but on offense he is absolutely getting by with the bare minimum level of support right now. 

Edited February 11, 2021 by SalvadorsDeli

[wackywabbit]

1 hour ago, ClutchDJ said:

- I don’t think Parker is THAT much better than Hollywood. Hollywood has his problems, but the system he plays in also doesn’t help at all. Also a bonus that he’s a great playoff performer so far.

Playoff Hollywood has been awesome. OTOH, Playoff Mandrews has been pretty awful. Going back to prior years as well (19 Titans game was the worst). The drops are on him, but we are also asking him to do way too much being a go-to, first read target. He's not one of the very few TEs who can be that. We need a real top target, ideally a big WR, and Andrews will be more dangerous as a second read. Getting that player is the biggest thing the Ravens need to do in the offseason.

Edited February 11, 2021 by wackywabbit

[sledgehammer]

Thanks for all the replies to this thread! I don't have anything to add, other than it was all illuminating reading 👍

[EvilenFroggen]

On 2/11/2021 at 9:54 AM, Hunter2_1 said:

Not sure, but some throws look inaccurate. I probably wouldn't read too much into it.

Sir, this is the internet. 

[Dr A W Niloc]

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What's the consensus about what's wrong with Lamar's pass game?

What "pass game"?

Your question begs the question.

[Piquel]

Slow release, inaccurate when he isn't allowed to "wind up".   Not terrible like Tebow, but that's why he's not an elite thrower.

[AngusMcFife]

4 minutes ago, Piquel said:

Slow release, inaccurate when he isn't allowed to "wind up".   Not terrible like Tebow, but that's why he's not an elite thrower.

This is a terrible scouting report.

[ThatJaxxenGuy]

His biggest flaw is throwing people open and anticipating breaking routes - things that likely come with experience.

pure passing numbers for the stat hounds, the issue is a number of factors - maybe the weakest passing scheme in the league, below average receiving threats and middling arm talent of Lamar himself, aren’t a recipe for very good stats, but I think the biggest issue is the trigger finger of the critics. A given single bad throw by Lamar receives substantially more negative attention and press than a given single bad throw from any other QB in the league. Confirmation bias is the main reason why we talk about his arm anymore because it’s well, fine. Not amazing or great but certainly not worth discussing as some major handicap to the Ravens and I’d honestly say there are times when he is dialled in on mechanics and lethal throwing the ball.

I’ve been thinking all season him and Hollywood were thinking this year would be easy after dominating last regular season. Next season will be really telling depending which direction they trend.

Edited February 13, 2021 by ThatJaxxenGuy

[Piquel]

Just now, AngusMcFife said:

This is a terrible scouting report.

Maybe, but that's what I see from the 5-6 games I've seen him play.  Makes decisions fairly quickly,  near elite zip,  some where between them is the problem. Dbs are able to close in on his targeted wr because of his awkward slow throwing motion.   He'd have way more batted down balls at line of scrimmage if he wasn't a running threat and dline are afraid to leave their feet.

[sledgehammer]

On 2/14/2021 at 6:16 AM, Dr A W Niloc said:

What "pass game"?

Your question begs the question.

I said 'if any?' ..  so it's a loaded question, not question begging.