Hindsight -- Draft 2020

[MantyWrestler]

2 hours ago, cannondale said:

I'm not ready to give Gute a pass on this one. It's also not wise to pinpoint just one draft. Re-wind to the 2 S.F games, the SD game, and the weaknesses the Packers have had pretty much annually, and a fair question can be "when is that garbage gonna get fixed ?"  Was Keke supposed to be the answer to transform the DL from trash to treasure ? Were the likes of Ty Summers and Kamal Martin gonna be the answer to bringing our LB group out of the 70's ? The Packers score 48, the opponent scores 49. The Packers score 28, the opponent scores 31. And it never really looks all that hard tor the opponent.  I'm talking playoff games here. Where you can rarely get by with just saying "go fetch me a win Aaron."  It's Gutes job to fix the issues that need fixing to get a ring. Rings are the goal, per his words. If Dillon and Deguara lead this team to the Super Bowl, I'll eat my words. But they won't. Fix the problem. Wirfs and Winfield fixed problems. Martin and Garvin did not. Keke and Summers did not. Burks and Looney did not

Did you just compare Tampa Bay’s first 2 picks to our 5th and 7th rounders?

Winfield is a nice player but he doesn’t change that game. Hell, did he even play in the playoff game?

Keke was showing promise and is young. Improvement was expected as it was with Adams, who was hurt last year. 

[Scoremore]

I've said this before and I'll say it again it is not a good idea to throw a rookie QB out the the wolves in his first season.  This is the toughest position to play in the NFL and requires a steep learning curve.  Understand the cap ramifications and wanting to get a young QB playing on a rookie deal.  Regardless throwing them out there before they are ready can ruin them permanently. If there is any position in the NFL that draft and develop applies this is it.

As for the pick I completely understand the logic in it.  Rodgers had been lost to injury twice in the proceeding seasons.  He hadn't played at a high level since his collarbone and knee injuries.  In addition the season itself was in doubt due to Covid.  So enough of the revisionist history.  As for Love himself he has all the tools but came in green as grass.  It was known that he would need time to develop.  Having Rodgers keeps us in the lower tier of teams drafting every year.  We don't have the luxury of a top 5 pick to spend on a more NFL ready QB.  QB's also have a high bust rate.  It was time to take a shot.  We may have to take another if Love doesn't work out.

The argument that QB's aren't important doesn't hold water with me.  Look no farther than Tampa.  How far do you think they would have got without Brady at the helm? To further the point how bad were the Packers in the two seasons Rodgers went down?  

History doesn't always repeat but it certainly rhymes.  Remember the same conversations when Rodgers was drafted instead of what?  You guessed it a WR.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Scoremore

[cannondale]

18 minutes ago, MantyWrestler said:

Did you just compare Tampa Bay’s first 2 picks to our 5th and 7th rounders?

Winfield is a nice player but he doesn’t change that game. Hell, did he even play in the playoff game?

Keke was showing promise and is young. Improvement was expected as it was with Adams, who was hurt last year. 

As mentioned - TB had problem areas and fixed them. The Packers have problem areas, and they remain problem areas year after year. The round that the players are chosen kinda says something as well don't you think ?  Whose problem is it that we are drafting 2nd round running backs, 3rd round h-backs and 1st round backup QB's while the defense continues to blow ? Name the last RB to lead a team to a Super Bowl. Raise your hand if you truly honestly thought the defense would stop TB on the final possession. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by cannondale

[pacman5252]

I'm still holding out hope on Love, but it doesn't look good. I will say looking at the board and who were realistic options, I don't think we missed on a stud in R1. We probably would have gotten a Michael Pittman, Shenault, or Pat Queen. Claypool was a mid second rounder so I don't want to count him.

Jeremy Chin R2 would have been really nice (I do like Dillon though, odd positional value though).

I did like Degura in his limited time. The critics would argue he's still a H back though (which is definitely fair). Odd position to take.

Martin looks good. Everything after that is a dart though (might have something in Runyan).

[MantyWrestler]

10 minutes ago, cannondale said:

As mentioned - TB had problem areas and fixed them. The Packers have problem areas, and they remain problem areas year after year. The round that the players are chosen kinda says something as well don't you think ?  Whose problem is it that we are drafting 2nd round running backs, 3rd round h-backs and 1st round backup QB's while the defense continues to blow ? Name the last RB to lead a team to a Super Bowl. 

I think you can argue that certain guys haven’t panned out but you can’t say Gute hasn’t addressed our issues. We’ve spent a lot of capital and FA moves on the defense that needed help. TT didn’t leave Gute in a good position on D. I think Gute is doing what he could. 
 

Playing to your point, what if Rogers would have said, I’m done this year or torn up his shoulder again?  What would we have this year? Without Dillion, where would we be sitting right now at RB? Degura really fits in with what MLF want to do on offense and could have been a matchup problem for the Bucs with him, Sternbeger and Tonyun on the field at the same time. We just don’t know that because of injuries. 
 

All that said, I do get it though. It would have been nice to draft a...? whatever you felt would have changed the out you that game. I just don’t know what that would have been. Not sure a WR was it. Is Claypool better than MVS right now?  Maybe he adds to the sum of the parts at WR though. I could see that. 
 

Yet, we could have, should have won that game anyway. 

[Dubz41]

The hindsighters who think we should of taken Winfield in the second round?  C'mon, you guys would have lost your sh** if we took a safety in the second round.  I laugh that some of the posters really do think they know more than Gute.  Winfield would have had trouble seeing the field on this team his rookie year.

Thank God Gute is stumbling in the dark, because even with the expected subtractions on our roster, we are still odds on favorites to make it back to the NFCCG.  Some of the things the GuteAnon group believes is entertaining/incredible.

[cannondale]

7 minutes ago, Dubz41 said:

The hindsighters who think we should of taken Winfield in the second round?  C'mon, you guys would have lost your sh** if we took a safety in the second round.  I laugh that some of the posters really do think they know more than Gute.  Winfield would have had trouble seeing the field on this team his rookie year.

Thank God Gute is stumbling in the dark, because even with the expected subtractions on our roster, we are still odds on favorites to make it back to the NFCCG.  Some of the things the GuteAnon group believes is entertaining/incredible.

I don't take a safety in the 2nd round. I also think Winfield and all the DB's are aided because of a great front 7. Now that's a novel idea that is time tested. Maybe the Packers should try that. And say what you want about Gary, he was chosen after signing Smith x2 in the strongest DL draft ever so we could roll with Lowry and Lancaster. It's totally fair to question some of the decisions. All that being said, if Gute said over a Spotted Cow, "dude I never thought we were gonna be 13-3 two years running" part of me would actually buy that. But you need a better defense regardless, either with Rodgers or a rookie QB, so build one already

[OneTwoSixFive]

18 minutes ago, cannondale said:

I don't take a safety in the 2nd round. I also think Winfield and all the DB's are aided because of a great front 7. Now that's a novel idea that is time tested. Maybe the Packers should try that. And say what you want about Gary, he was chosen after signing Smith x2 in the strongest DL draft ever so we could roll with Lowry and Lancaster. It's totally fair to question some of the decisions. All that being said, if Gute said over a Spotted Cow, "dude I never thought we were gonna be 13-3 two years running" part of me would actually buy that. But you need a better defense regardless, either with Rodgers or a rookie QB, so build one already

So is it novel (ie new) ?  Or is it time tested ?

[cannondale]

1 minute ago, OneTwoSixFive said:

So is it novel (ie new) ?  Or is it time tested ?

yes

[coachbuns]

3 hours ago, cannondale said:

I don't take a safety in the 2nd round. I also think Winfield and all the DB's are aided because of a great front 7. Now that's a novel idea that is time tested. Maybe the Packers should try that. And say what you want about Gary, he was chosen after signing Smith x2 in the strongest DL draft ever so we could roll with Lowry and Lancaster. It's totally fair to question some of the decisions. All that being said, if Gute said over a Spotted Cow, "dude I never thought we were gonna be 13-3 two years running" part of me would actually buy that. But you need a better defense regardless, either with Rodgers or a rookie QB, so build one already

Easier if you pick every other year in the top 10 with the off years in top 15 like TB or every other crap team did that finally made the playoffs.   

[vegas492]

6 hours ago, Dubz41 said:

The hindsighters who think we should of taken Winfield in the second round?  C'mon, you guys would have lost your sh** if we took a safety in the second round.  I laugh that some of the posters really do think they know more than Gute.  Winfield would have had trouble seeing the field on this team his rookie year.

Thank God Gute is stumbling in the dark, because even with the expected subtractions on our roster, we are still odds on favorites to make it back to the NFCCG.  Some of the things the GuteAnon group believes is entertaining/incredible.

Yah, I would have filled my pants.

And quickly gotten over it had it meant someone not named Redmond was taking our snaps as safety #3.  We play 3 safeties a lot.

Second round is a little rich for that position, but I'd love it if we drafted a guy in the 4'th round or later, key being DRAFTED, to play that spot.  If we are going to run that much 3rd safety stuff, we gotta do better than trotting out UDFA's or cast offs time and time again.

And really, that's just Redmond trauma coming to the surface for me.  God I dislike seeing him on the field.

[AlexGreen#20]

7 hours ago, Dubz41 said:

The hindsighters who think we should of taken Winfield in the second round?  C'mon, you guys would have lost your sh** if we took a safety in the second round.  I laugh that some of the posters really do think they know more than Gute.  Winfield would have had trouble seeing the field on this team his rookie year.

Thank God Gute is stumbling in the dark, because even with the expected subtractions on our roster, we are still odds on favorites to make it back to the NFCCG.  Some of the things the GuteAnon group believes is entertaining/incredible.

We played with 6 DBs on 51% of snaps last year. I don't think anybody would have lost their mind about a 3rd safety. 

[CWood21]

10 hours ago, cannondale said:

I'm not ready to give Gute a pass on this one. It's also not wise to pinpoint just one draft. Re-wind to the 2 S.F games, the SD game, and the weaknesses the Packers have had pretty much annually, and a fair question can be "when is that garbage gonna get fixed ?"  Was Keke supposed to be the answer to transform the DL from trash to treasure ? Were the likes of Ty Summers and Kamal Martin gonna be the answer to bringing our LB group out of the 70's ? The Packers score 48, the opponent scores 49. The Packers score 28, the opponent scores 31. And it never really looks all that hard tor the opponent.  I'm talking playoff games here. Where you can rarely get by with just saying "go fetch me a win Aaron."  It's Gutes job to fix the issues that need fixing to get a ring. Rings are the goal, per his words. If Dillon and Deguara lead this team to the Super Bowl, I'll eat my words. But they won't. Fix the problem. Wirfs and Winfield fixed problems. Martin and Garvin did not. Keke and Summers did not. Burks and Looney did not

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting that giving Gute a "pass" for this year's draft class.  Could he have drafted a class that was a bit more ready to produce?  Sure.  But you're also talking about a draft class that we could be talking very differently a year or two down the road.  Right now, Gute has drafted 2 likely starters next year in AJ Dillon and Kamal Martin.  Jordan Love is the QBOTF, so he won't play until Rodgers is gone.  And even Josiah Deguara looked really good before he tore his ACL.  Hell, even Jon Runyan looked solid when he played.  This whole draft class is going to be judged by Love.

[CWood21]

8 hours ago, cannondale said:

The comparison is in fixing the problems. No one is forcing Gute to use mid-round picks on the problems.

That's not a comparison.  That's intentionally trying to mislead to "win" an argument.

[MantyWrestler]

1 hour ago, CWood21 said:

That's not a comparison.  That's intentionally trying to mislead to "win" an argument.

I’m not even sure what he’s arguing anymore. He wanted Gute to do more but what exactly he doesn’t say. 

If Dillion puts up Lacy like numbers without the weight issues, that’s a great pick. Martin looks like a very good pick where we took him. Degura looked good out of the gates and may have made a difference for us if he hadn’t gotten hurt. I’d Love turns out to be an above average QB, that’s a good pick. 

What did he want in place of those guys? I would like him to be specific.