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Rebuilding the OL


onejayhawk

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25 minutes ago, mayanfootball said:

Until proven, yes we do

Done.

Remmers is a proven RT. Wylie is a proven backup. We hope to improve the situation, but we already have a proven fix. For example, I would love the chance to try Alijah Vera-Tucker at RT. 

It's important not to value new as better. Drafting a first round player to start immediately is a loser mentality. New England traded away their first round pick for years, because they could get multiple second and third rounders. Day two players are usually less ready to play, but may be better long term. You draft talent and develop it. The Patriots were famous for pulling significant replacements off the bench, or moving them from other positions. 

It's what we did with Lucas Niang. What we know is that he was top 50 talent, who slid to the end of the 3rd because of an injury. We know he has outstanding physical traits, including a solid base, excellent mobility and power at the PoA. We know he is now fully healthy and has been working with a position trainer. What we don't know is whether he has been working at both OT spots, or just at RT. In his place, I would be looking to take the LT spot from the first day of OTA, but that's me.

So, we have a proven fix at RT and we may have a hidden fix at LT. We do not have a starter opposite Frank Clark.

J

Edited by onejayhawk
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OT is on par with edge with me right now.   WR is slightly below that,  than comes LB.  To me personally.  Though I’m drafting any of them if that’s where the best player is.  
 

LT to me is still rough.   Remmers/Niang is about as perfect of a situation at RT as you can get though.  Solid Vet,  high upside depth.   I don’t think Niang has the movement skills to play LT,   Dion Dawkins might be his ceiling at LT though,  where as I think he could be one of the best RT’s in the game if kept there. 
 

Edge is rough.   Clark is better suited as a #2,  but he’s a better DE than anything we have at OT.    Chris Jones helps out a bit here, as Spags likes lining him up at DE on occasion.    I think the depth at DT helps a little bit with our DE situation, but it’s for sure a need.    I’m in the crazy group that was really hoping for a Melvin Ingram signing.    

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18 minutes ago, samsel23 said:

OT is on par with edge with me right now.   WR is slightly below that,  than comes LB.  To me personally.  Though I’m drafting any of them if that’s where the best player is.  

LT to me is still rough.   Remmers/Niang is about as perfect of a situation at RT as you can get though.  Solid Vet,  high upside depth.   I don’t think Niang has the movement skills to play LT,   Dion Dawkins might be his ceiling at LT though,  where as I think he could be one of the best RT’s in the game if kept there. 

Edge is rough.   Clark is better suited as a #2,  but he’s a better DE than anything we have at OT.    Chris Jones helps out a bit here, as Spags likes lining him up at DE on occasion.    I think the depth at DT helps a little bit with our DE situation, but it’s for sure a need.    I’m in the crazy group that was really hoping for a Melvin Ingram signing.    

I don't get the bolded. Mobility is one of Niang's assets. I am not knocking the prospect of a Pro-Bowl RT, to which Niang can certainly aspire. But, don't get married to the concept. If he can be a Pro-Bowl RT, why not a Pro-Bowl LT? He has plenty of movement capacity and we know he is working with a position trainer.

If we had TK back in house, I would agree that LT and DE are relatively comparable issues. Until that happens, we have a hole to plug.

With Robinson, we have four serviceable WR. Brady went most of his career with less. Given the cattle-call of reserve/futures contracts to WR, I think the team is leaning to only day #3 picks, if any. LB is another story. Gay did not do well as a rookie, but that needs further evaluation than we can give. Regardless, we are at least as good as when we won the SB. 

J

Edited by onejayhawk
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18 minutes ago, onejayhawk said:

I don't get the bolded. Mobility is one of Niang's assets. I am not knocking the prospect of a Pro-Bowl RT, to which Niang can certainly aspire. But, don't get married to the concept. If he can be a Pro-Bowl RT, why not a Pro-Bowl LT? He has plenty of movement capacity and we know he is working with a position trainer.

If we had TK back in house, I would agree that LT and DE are relatively comparable issues. Until that happens, we have a hole to plug.

With Robinson, we have four serviceable WR. Brady went most of his career with less. Given the cattle-call of reserve/futures contracts to WR, I think the team is leaning to only day #3 picks, if any. LB is another story. Gay did not do well as a rookie, but that needs further evaluation than we can give. Regardless, we are at least as good as when we won the SB. 

J

Niang's mobility is an asset at RT or OG.    Which is what he played in college and what the majority of his pre draft write ups are covering.   Just watching his college tape,   he lacks initial quickness/depth on his kick slide.   Some of that can be worked on technique wise,   but that whole mobility is an asset was coming from him being graded as a RT,   I think you lose that once you start sliding him over to LT.    Niang's biggest asset is that once he locks onto a defender,  that rep is pretty much over.     I mean before last season's opt out,   there was talk of him locking down the LG spot.    I just think we're pigeon holing Niang into the spot that is most needed because he's an unknown commodity right now.   To put it in easier terms,     If Eichenberg would have been playing RT for 4 years,   his athleticism would be a + on his predraft  instead of a negative.

TK is a replacement level player,   I wouldn't change anything we do draft wise based off anything that happens with Kpass.   We definitely need to be checking some of the veteran edge players in FA right now though.   Edge production last year was probably worse than OL play for a majority of the year.

 

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23 hours ago, onejayhawk said:

No, you don't. He doesn't fall in the 20-50 range and he's not an experienced LT. If we needed OG, I would be all over him.

Re-signing Fisher as a stopgap is fine if he's going to be ready. Signing him to a one year deal with a first game in October, not so much. 

J

I hope Niang can lock down the RT spot and Remmers serves as a veteran swing tackle for depth. I get the feeling Niang is much more projectible at RT than LT. Cosmi or Leatherwood in round 1 at left tackle stabilized by a veteran like Thuney could give us long term bookends and very solid players at LT, LG, and RT for quite some time. Basham in round 2, although it would likely require a trade up to have a shot at him.

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3 hours ago, samsel23 said:

Niang's mobility is an asset at RT or OG.    Which is what he played in college and what the majority of his pre draft write ups are covering.   Just watching his college tape,   he lacks initial quickness/depth on his kick slide.   Some of that can be worked on technique wise,   but that whole mobility is an asset was coming from him being graded as a RT,   I think you lose that once you start sliding him over to LT.    Niang's biggest asset is that once he locks onto a defender,  that rep is pretty much over.     I mean before last season's opt out,   there was talk of him locking down the LG spot.    I just think we're pigeon holing Niang into the spot that is most needed because he's an unknown commodity right now.   To put it in easier terms,     If Eichenberg would have been playing RT for 4 years,   his athleticism would be a + on his predraft  instead of a negative.

TK is a replacement level player,   I wouldn't change anything we do draft wise based off anything that happens with Kpass.   We definitely need to be checking some of the veteran edge players in FA right now though.   Edge production last year was probably worse than OL play for a majority of the year.

 

Aren't you pigeonhole Niang into positions he played in college. I have no doubt he would be a superior LG, that being our biggest need this time last year. There is no way Eichenberg rates a plus for athleticism, regardless of position. Instead of pigeon holing him into what we have already seen, I am saying that we may not have seen everything important. 

Tim Ward and Demone Harris are replacement level. TK is at least a full step above that, maybe two steps. This is not to say he is someone who you want getting more than 50% of the defensive snaps, but he is at least a solid rotation player. What veteran edge players? It's always one of the fastest positions to be snatched up. We have Danna and Clark. Adding TK would get us a rotation, albeit a paper thin one. Fortunately, players like Jordan Smith and Dayo Odeyingbo should last well into round #3. 

1 hour ago, nicfre2011 said:

I hope Niang can lock down the RT spot and Remmers serves as a veteran swing tackle for depth. I get the feeling Niang is much more projectible at RT than LT. Cosmi or Leatherwood in round 1 at left tackle stabilized by a veteran like Thuney could give us long term bookends and very solid players at LT, LG, and RT for quite some time. Basham in round 2, although it would likely require a trade up to have a shot at him.

That's one option. Niang could easily take the RT job and keep it for three Presidents. I am hoping for more. 

41 minutes ago, mayanfootball said:

You are WAYYYY out on a limb there.

No. I'm not. Wylie is is about average for a non-starting RT. 

J

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43 minutes ago, onejayhawk said:

Aren't you pigeonhole Niang into positions he played in college. I have no doubt he would be a superior LG, that being our biggest need this time last year. There is no way Eichenberg rates a plus for athleticism, regardless of position. Instead of pigeon holing him into what we have already seen, I am saying that we may not have seen everything important. 

Tim Ward and Demone Harris are replacement level. TK is at least a full step above that, maybe two steps. This is not to say he is someone who you want getting more than 50% of the defensive snaps, but he is at least a solid rotation player. What veteran edge players? It's always one of the fastest positions to be snatched up. We have Danna and Clark. Adding TK would get us a rotation, albeit a paper thin one. Fortunately, players like Jordan Smith and Dayo Odeyingbo should last well into round #3. 

That's one option. Niang could easily take the RT job and keep it for three Presidents. I am hoping for more. 

No. I'm not. Wylie is is about average for a non-starting RT. 

J

I mean I guess you could say I'm doing that with Niang..  though he was widely regarded as a RT/OG guy.   I'm not sure his name would be being placed there if it wasn't such a big need.   I'm more on the boat of not counting on a guy at a position he's never played, than profiling him to it because it has become one of the biggest needs.   I'd question why he wasn't given the option at TCU,  it's not like he had a stud on the other side during his time there.  Meh,  Eichenberg would have gotten solid remarks on his athleticism if he had been at RT,   he just looks below average when you're grading him alongside the LT's of this class.

 

Ward/Harris are lucky to make a 53 man roster.  TK is a replacement level player on a 53.    Yeah he had snaps,  but what did he do?   Our DE play was worse than OL play last year.  There's still plenty of DE's out there that would be an improvement of Tanoh.   The only thing he's slightly above average at is holding the edge.   Not really the type of DE I want as a backup.

 

Wylie is awful at RT,    he's okay as depth along the interior.  

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I agree that Niang was viewed as a RT/OG player, because that was where he played for all of his video. We know that he has professionals helping him prepare. If he can be an option at LT, they will make sure he puts his best foot forward. All I am saying is recognize that it is a realistic possibility. 

Lucky to make a 53 man roster is the definition of replacement level. Since they did make the roster, they define replacement level. TK is significantly higher. What you are are arguing is that TK is a low level rotation player. I understand, but I don't agree. Setting the edge is big part of the job description. At most he is a below average starter, which is a high end rotation player.  

Name three DE that are both available and better than Kpassagnon.

Wylie is better at RT than at OG. Either way he is viable depth. 

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9 hours ago, onejayhawk said:

Wylie is a proven backup.

The above is what you typed. I disagreed. All you did was, in a sense, say "he is too". That's just lame for a comeback. "J", weve given Wylie so  many games to prove himself and all he does is embarrass himself and the Chiefs. Let him go play for someone else that's on our schedule. Our defense will show you what I mean.

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1 minute ago, mayanfootball said:

The above is what you typed. I disagreed. All you did was, in a sense, say "he is too". That's just lame for a comeback. "J", weve given Wylie so  many games to prove himself and all he does is embarrass himself and the Chiefs. Let him go play for someone else that's on our schedule. Our defense will show you what I mean.

Now you are being abusive to no good reason.

You may not like Wylie's level of play, but that does not make him less than he is. He's no starter, but he is a proven backup. If you think we need a better backup, then that is what you should have said, instead of getting personal. 

If it's any consolation, I have doubts he makes the 53 man roster. Thune will most likely own LG for a few years and Long is supposed to be back in playing shape. Throw in Allegretti, LDT and Durant and you likely get five players ahead of him on the depth chart.

J

 

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7 hours ago, mayanfootball said:

You are WAYYYY out on a limb there.

Yeah I’ve seen this take a few times here, proven to suck even as a backup lol. How can he be a solid backup if he’s practically a revolving door every time he plays a snap 

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4 hours ago, onejayhawk said:

Name three DE that are both available and better than Kpassagnon.

Wylie is better at RT than at OG. Either way he is viable depth. 

I would, but both of these just point towards you HIGHLY overrating guys because they are Chiefs.    If Tanoh was not a Chief,  he would largely be in a pool of a bunch of Jags still available at edge and we wouldn’t be talking about him.  Well I guess technically he still is in the pool with all the other jag,  just however you want to view it. 
 

Ward and Demone were on the PS pretty much all year,  and no one claimed them from us.  They may have played a few games with the call up option, but they weren’t on the 53.    I’d agree Tanoh is obviously a couple steps up from them,  but he’s still replacement level.   I’m probably have Okafor above Tanoh if you could count on him actually being healthy,  and I’m not even high on Okafor 

Edited by samsel23
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You brought up replacement level. That means someone you can claim of PS or hire off the street, such as Ward and Harris. Sometimes you get Damien Williams or even Kurt Warner, but usually someone that belongs on a PS. If they are on a 53 then they are by definition better than replacement value. What did you think it meant?

Here is the DE page from Sportrac. For the record, the Jags only have one DE as a FA, Dawuane Smoot. I would put him about on par with Okafor, but younger. 
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/all/defensive-end/available/

I was going to give you Clowney and Beasley, which is why I asked for three. 

J

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