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childofpudding

McClellin possibly to begin practicing

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37 minutes ago, mcmurtry86 said:

If you think McClellin was better than Van Noy last year, I now understand why you think he's helpful. You're also wrong about the snap counts once Van Noy was brought in and acclimated, he played more than McClellin except in the final regular season game when Van Noy was pulled in garbage time. 

As for the Super Bowl, McClellin played 8 snaps. Roberts played 14 and Van Noy 30. So if McClellin truly is better, we should let Belichick know that he was playing worse players in the biggest game of the year.

I get that you like the guy and think he's a useful piece. I'm all for debating his abilities as a LB but all the evidence from 2016 points to him being worse and less trusted than the guys already on the team. 

Regardless of how you view his time in Chicago, the tape is there. It doesn't matter how good the Pats coaches are, some things you just can't fix. Being useless at the POA is really hard, if not impossible to fix. Instincts can't be taught. 

He's a bad player. He's been a bad player his whole career. Until he shows otherwise, there's no reason to think he's improved enough to improve the LB unit when he lost his job and snaps to the same guys who are ahead of him now. I hope he proves me wrong but I just don't see it. He literally has no high end ability in any aspect of the game and his instincts/fundamentals looked poor last year. Other than ST, there's nothing he's good at and many things he's demonstrably bad at

Wrong. McClellin had more total snaps once Van Noy came to the team. And they had almost the same number of snaps at LB. He out-snapped Van Noy and Roberts in the playoffs, and had more snaps at LB vs. the Steelers. He was on the same tier as Van Noy and Roberts as a LB last year (mediocre to below average) and brings flexibility to the defense to allow them to run more 3 LB sets and still control all their snap counts. And yes, he brings value to ST, which matters.

I neither like the guy nor dislike him. You're the one with the clear dislike for him. I just want him back for depth at a thin position on a defense that's one of the worst in the league, and my initial post in this thread stated as much: "Never thought I'd be as excited as I am to get Shea McClellin back in the lineup, but that's how it is with a position group that has virtually zero depth."

Perhaps you should be the one informing Belichick that he shouldn't have signed McClellin to 3yr/9m, shouldn't have played him for ~600 total snaps last season, shouldn't have kept in the offseason, and shouldn't be having him practice or designating him for return from IR. *rolls eyes*

Edited by childofpudding

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49 minutes ago, childofpudding said:

Wrong. McClellin had more total snaps once Van Noy came to the team. And they had almost the same number of snaps at LB. He out-snapped Van Noy and Roberts in the playoffs, and had more snaps at LB vs. the Steelers. He was on the same tier as Van Noy and Roberts as a LB last year (mediocre to below average) and brings flexibility to the defense to allow them to run more 3 LB sets and still control all their snap counts. And yes, he brings value to ST, which matters.

I neither like the guy nor dislike him. You're the one with the clear dislike for him. I just want him back for depth at a thin position on a defense that's one of the worst in the league, and my initial post in this thread stated as much: "Never thought I'd be as excited as I am to get Shea McClellin back in the lineup, but that's how it is with a position group that has virtually zero depth."

Perhaps you should be the one informing Belichick that he shouldn't have signed McClellin to 3yr/9m, shouldn't have played him for ~600 total snaps last season, shouldn't have kept in the offseason, and shouldn't be having him practice or designating him for return from IR. *rolls eyes*

% of defensive snaps for week 10-16

Van Noy

46%

49%

78%

52%

82%

80%

32%

 

McClellin:

57%

54%

74%

47%

32%

62%

49%

 

McClellin never played more than 74% of the D snaps in a game once Van Noy came in and once Van Noy acclimated, he played more per game than McClellin, including in the Super Bowl.

In the playoffs:

Texans game:

McClellin 7 snaps

Van Noy 32 

Roberts 36

Steelers game:

McClellin 43

Van Noy 42

Roberts 22

(note: McClellin came in for Hightower at one point with Hightower only playing 36 snaps)

Super Bowl

McClellin 8

Van Noy 30

Roberts 14

Total snaps on D in postseason 

Van Noy 104

Roberts 72

McClellin 58

 

Not sure how 58 > 104 to be honest. 

As for McClellins contract, it's a bad one and not the first (or last) bad deal Belichick has handed out.

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Also, having McClellin log 200 snaps on ST last year (leaving him with 380 on D) is irrelevant to the discussion of his value as a LB. 

And bringing him off IR doesn't really much in terms of the team's opinion of him other than they can use that twice and they only have 2 or 3 guys who make sense to use it on, one of whom seems to be (unfortunately) not close to returning. No matter how much he sucks, they might as well activate him if he's ready to go and the other guys aren't. 

Playing a lot fewer snaps in the biggest games of the year last year tells me everything I need to know about how the coaching staff views McClellin 

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Nice numbers, but I said total snaps. My argument over the last two days has been depth, versatility and ST value. You just want to argue straight LB value.

25 minutes ago, mcmurtry86 said:

Playing a lot fewer snaps in the biggest games of the year last year tells me everything I need to know about how the coaching staff views McClellin 

You mean in the AFCC, when McClellin took the most snaps at LB, including more than Van Noy?

Clearly the coaching staff thinks more of McClellin than you do, considering he wasn't cut in the offseason, went through camp, is practicing, and is designated for return from IR.

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McClellin playing 1 more snap in D than Van Noy, because he was covering for Hightower isn't evidence of anything xD especially when McClellin was barely used when Hightower was healthy. They had no other bodies in the AFCCG other than Mingo who doesn't play inside.

Why would they cut him in the offseason? They put him on IR before final cuts so there was no reason to cut him.

And "designated for return" isn't a thing in the NFL anymore. Guys go on IR and you can take 2 off. 

Hes a crappy LB and Van Noy took his job. If you want to argue that McClellin is a good ST player, I've already agreed with that. But this whole conversation started on who is more valuable, Mitchell or McClellin and nowhere in that conversation did you raise McClellins ST abilities relative to the guys he'd be replacing other than saying "it matters". It's been entirely a conversation about Van Noy, Roberts and the impact to D as far as I'm concerned

Now, if you want to talk about impact on ST, I'll say that Flowers is better than McClellin and if that's the roster move (cutting Flowers) it's a net downgrade on that unit. He's a useful ST piece, not a stand out one. That's all there really is to that piece of the conversation.

He's a crappy LB who was a liability on the field at LB and a capable ST player and you've offered no evidence to the contrary beyond the fact that he filled in for Hightower in the AFCCG out of necessity. He offers nothing that the guys he would replace on the 53 or 46 don't already offer. Flowers is a worse LB but better ST. All the other guys are better LB and equal or worse ST. 

I'm moving on, you clearly value McClellin's contributions on D and I absolutely do not unless he's miraculously improved. Let's leave it at that

 

Edited by mcmurtry86

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1 hour ago, childofpudding said:

Nice numbers, but I said total snaps. My argument over the last two days has been depth, versatility and ST value. You just want to argue straight LB value.

You mean in the AFCC, when McClellin took the most snaps at LB, including more than Van Noy?

Clearly the coaching staff thinks more of McClellin than you do, considering he wasn't cut in the offseason, went through camp, is practicing, and is designated for return from IR.

Coaching staff values McClellin because he's versatile and the Patriot's always like to utilize unique strengths of their players.  So if we lose a run stuffing LB or a coverage LB, instead of needing 2 backup LB's (1 that specializes in the run and 1 that specializes in coverage) to fill the gap in our defense, we can just plug McClellin into the D because he's well rounded.  Value-wise he's not someone we want to cut off the team yet because as long as you have him on the squad, you don't need additional LB depth since he can fill whatever role is needed.

 

Hightower and Roberts are both way better against the run than McClellin and Van Noy is a much better coverage LB than McClellin so, there's no reason to throw McClellin into the game since he's not particularly strong at any aspect of the LB position.  You just run combinations of Hightower/Roberts with Van Noy so that you always have an LB that can stuff the run and 1 LB that can drop into coverage.  

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6 hours ago, mcmurtry86 said:

McClellin playing 1 more snap in D than Van Noy, because he was covering for Hightower isn't evidence of anything xD especially when McClellin was barely used when Hightower was healthy. They had no other bodies in the AFCCG other than Mingo who doesn't play inside.

Why would they cut him in the offseason? They put him on IR before final cuts so there was no reason to cut him.

And "designated for return" isn't a thing in the NFL anymore. Guys go on IR and you can take 2 off. 

Hes a crappy LB and Van Noy took his job. If you want to argue that McClellin is a good ST player, I've already agreed with that. But this whole conversation started on who is more valuable, Mitchell or McClellin and nowhere in that conversation did you raise McClellins ST abilities relative to the guys he'd be replacing other than saying "it matters". It's been entirely a conversation about Van Noy, Roberts and the impact to D as far as I'm concerned

Now, if you want to talk about impact on ST, I'll say that Flowers is better than McClellin and if that's the roster move (cutting Flowers) it's a net downgrade on that unit. He's a useful ST piece, not a stand out one. That's all there really is to that piece of the conversation.

He's a crappy LB who was a liability on the field at LB and a capable ST player and you've offered no evidence to the contrary beyond the fact that he filled in for Hightower in the AFCCG out of necessity. He offers nothing that the guys he would replace on the 53 or 46 don't already offer. Flowers is a worse LB but better ST. All the other guys are better LB and equal or worse ST. 

I'm moving on, you clearly value McClellin's contributions on D and I absolutely do not unless he's miraculously improved. Let's leave it at that

 

They had Roberts in the AFCC, McClellin got more snaps than both him and Van Noy. The reason is that Hightower was injured and the coaching staff decided that McClellin gave the team its next best option as a pass coverage LB against a Steelers team that aired it out early and often. I'm not surprised you would find some way to dismiss that, though.

If McClellin was as bad as you say, they could have released him in the offseason before he even went on IR, cut their losses for less than $1.7m, and signed someone "off the street" who would be just as good, according to you.

I also think McClellin is a useful ST piece. I'm glad we agree.

You are right, the original conversation was who is more valuable, McClellin or Mitchell. In a vacuum, I agree that Mitchell is, and it's not close. Considering the team right now and its needs, McClellin is. You say that McClellin doesn't bring anything to the roster that others don't, but neither does Mitchell. The key is that the team needs depth at LB far more than they need depth for receiving targets. And it's disingenuous to argue about hypothetical future injuries for Gronk and Amendola as if they're a 100% certainty, while simultaneously ignoring the equally likely injury to Hightower.

 

Edited by childofpudding

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1 hour ago, tonyto36 said:

And he still counts as one of our two "designated to return".  So only one Mitchell or Valentine can come back.

I didn't think he ever actually officially returned from the IR, and therefore wouldn't count?

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8 hours ago, biggbrd said:

I didn't think he ever actually officially returned from the IR, and therefore wouldn't count?

I believe they had him practicing, so he counts. 

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8 hours ago, ConnPatFan said:

I believe they had him practicing, so he counts. 

Reiss put out the other day we have two spots available, contradicting an earlier report from him that said he counted. Until he gets put on the active roster I thought he didn't count.

Edited by iothar

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Gotta think it will be Valentine if Mitchell just started running. Unless his back is that bad.

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