Rhetorical: If Packers were offered a first round pick for Jordan Love, should they take it?

[Soko]

26 minutes ago, Blue said:

What are you talking about? I'm not conflating those things at all. I am simply pointing out that Jordan Love did not face any particularly special challenges that every other rookie quarterback was not also facing.

Wrong. I pointed them out several times. Love wasn’t remotely in the same situation as any of the other FRP QBs. 

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Quit lying. At no point were Tua or Herbert given a chance to win the starting jobs for their teams in preseason. I could link you a half-dozen Rotoworld posts stating that Lynn fully planned to start Tyrod Taylor all season, and Lynn even said that Taylor would be the starter when he got healthy right up until Herbert made it impossible for him to do that without getting fired on the spot.

Please do. Here, I’ll start.

Tyrod was announced the starter once Week 1 got close. He won the job in camp, he wasn’t gifted it. 

Funny side note: Anthony Lynn says “I won’t put a time table on that young man (Hebert)”, which you funnily enough, are doing right now on Love. Classic.

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Everyone was shocked Tua was named the starter midway through the season in spite of Fitzpatrick's play,

A correct statement, finally.

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and he was still no-contact in practices two weeks into the actual season.

Proof? He was cleared for, and I quote, “all football activity” in March. Then in July he was cleared for contact by the team. So I’d like a source.

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At no point were either of those players given a fair chance to start Week 1, and if Taylor's lung isn't punctured, it's possible Herbert sits the whole year.

Well, here’s another one to prove you’re wrong.

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So yes, they did have the same expectations as Love: ride the bench, get some practice reps, be ready for 2021. Claiming otherwise is revisionist history at best.

Well, no. They didn’t, unless you can post something relevant to prove that Tua and Herbert were expected to ride the bench all of 2020? I’ll wait, no worries.

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Yes, Love probably was ticketed for the second round if the Packers didn't take him. How convenient that you ignore the fact that he was taken in the first round. So yes, I can claim both things because they're both true! Amazing how you get to do that when you say things that are true.

You’re simultaneously arguing Love isn’t worthy of his draft status, yet then hold him to the draft status of players picked in the top 6...it makes sense if you don’t think about it.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Yin-Yang

[CrazyJoeDavola]

7 hours ago, Blue said:

If you're in the playoffs, you're almost certainly not looking at a safe lead. It's even more ridiculous given that you're claiming a second-year UDFA from Eastern Kentucky whom the Packers made zero attempt to retain was the "safer" option. That Green Bay thought he was the safer option in spite of a full season for the more-talented first round pick to learn the offense does not reflect well on the first-round pick.

If you don’t have a safe lead that’s even more of a reason to go with the experience over the raw rookie. And it was Boyle’s third year in the NFL and his second on the active roster. You use his college and draft status as a knock on him but after three years that doesn’t matter. He is an NFL player with NFL experience however minor that may be but just being in that building every day provides new knowledge and experience and builds a trust and relationship with the teammates there. It’s fine if you disagree with how the Packers staff has handled and managers Love to this point but drawing the conclusions you have come to are just you reading into it what you want to believe. Packers fans knew the plan coming into the season and the staff has not deviated from that plan. 

[Mox]

On 4/5/2021 at 9:41 PM, HeresAGuy said:

I got to thinking about this. There are plenty of QB needy teams, and I think the case could be made if Jordan Love was in this year's draft, he would be fighting with Justin Fields for third QB off the board. That has the capacity to be the third overall pick.

I reject this hypothesis. That renders the rest useless.

[Blue]

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Wrong. I pointed them out several times. Love wasn’t remotely in the same situation as any of the other FRP QBs. 

Please do. Here, I’ll start.

Tyrod was announced the starter once Week 1 got close. He won the job in camp, he wasn’t gifted it. 

Funny side note: Anthony Lynn says “I won’t put a time table on that young man (Hebert)”, which you funnily enough, are doing right now on Love. Classic.

A correct statement, finally.

Proof? He was cleared for, and I quote, “all football activity” in March. Then in July he was cleared for contact by the team. So I’d like a source.

Well, here’s another one to prove you’re wrong.

Well, no. They didn’t, unless you can post something relevant to prove that Tua and Herbert were expected to ride the bench all of 2020? I’ll wait, no worries.

You’re simultaneously arguing Love isn’t worthy of his draft status, yet then hold him to the draft status of players picked in the top 6...it makes sense if you don’t think about it.

Daniel Popper of the Athletic, Popper again on September 1st. Roto's summary of the former article:

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Popper is a Chargers beat reporter and has maintained this stance for the entire offseason once Tom Brady was out of the picture. Coach Anthony Lynn has been vocal that Taylor is more than a bridge quarterback, so we had assumed Taylor will at least start the first few games of the 2020 season. With COVID-19 changing aspects of the offseason, rookie quarterbacks (minus Joe Burrow) could stay on the sideline for longer than usual. Justin Herbert will likely need Tyrod to struggle or have the Chargers be eliminated from playoff contention to see starting snaps.

Anthony Lynn stating Taylor is "probably" the starter in late July. Rotoworld on it:

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This falls in line with what the Chargers have said all offseason. There’s still six weeks before the regular season, but the lack of reps for Justin Herbert is going to make it hard for the Chargers to start him. It won’t be surprising if Herbert follows a similar path to Baker Mayfield, who replaced Taylor in Week 4. Taylor's leash will be short if he wins the job.

September 2nd, Taylor officially named as starter. And from the sounds of it, it doesn't seem like he was real impressed with Herbert in practices:

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Apparently this was news to some on Twitter. "Right now, Tyrod Taylor is our starter," Lynn said. "Until someone steps up and shows that they can run this team, that’s the way we’re going in to it. Tyrod Taylor is our starter." Lynn has been consistent in this all offseason. First-rounder Justin Herbert simply hasn't even come close to bouncing Taylor from the top spot. Taylor is an uninspiring starter, but he should be able to manage this team. He's not on the fantasy radar outside of deeper two-QB leagues.

Anthony Lynn doubles down on Taylor as the starter even after Herbert's awesome debut where literally no one expected him to play until pre-game warmups, including Anthony Lynn. And then he triple-downed on that. Anthony wouldn't commit to Herbert as the starting QB for the rest of the season until October.

If that's not enough evidence for you, I don't know what is. Now, as for Tua:

Josh Tolentino states Fitzpatrick is "clearly" the starter. Roto's take:

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Tua Tagovailoa is practicing without restrictions on his recovered hip, but he is apparently being babied along through team drills. Tagovailoa probably lost any realistic shot he had at starting Week 1 when the entire in-person offseason program was lost to the coronavirus pandemic. We fully expect Tagovailoa to make rookie starts, but he will be taking up space on your early-season bench in super FLEX leagues. 

Despite claims that the QB competition was open, ESPN's Cameron Wolfe pointed out that Tua was "slowly eased into action." Days later, the Miami Herald reported "The rookie has not done enough to inject himself in the starting battle," although they admitted he had looked good in padded practices. Furthermore, he was not throwing to the first team, at least not in practices open to the public:

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It would be interesting to see what Tagovailoa could do if he were throwing to DeVante Parker and Preston Williams in 11-on-11 drills, instead of rookies or journeymen. But the Dolphins have not yet been tempted to do that.

Fitzpatrick wasn't named the starter until just before Week 1, but Roto noted that this wasn't a surprise move:

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The team telegraphed this decision last month. Flores said last week that QB Tua Tagovailoa's recovery from offseason hip surgery would play a factor in whether he'd play in the early season, even though the rookie displayed good mobility throughout training camp. Tagovailoa would likely get a shot to start once the Dolphins' season is in the tank and coaches want the rookie to get some game reps. For now, the Beard will once again fling it to wideouts DeVante Parker and Preston Williams, both of whom thrived through portions of the 2019 season. Fitzpatrick and the Dolphins should be forced into plenty of pass-heavy game script, making the wily veteran a cheap source of points in superflex and 2-QB leagues. 

The second bold is why Tua getting the nod halfway through the season was so surprising: their season wasn't in the tank and Fitzpatrick was playing reasonably well. More on that later.

Despite insisting Tua was healthy, the team continued to list him with a hip injury. They insisted it wasn't related to his college injury, but personally, I'm not buying it. It's worth remembering that this front office and coaching staff is from the New England tree: lying and obfuscating about injuries is part of the culture. Make your own decision on whether to believe them or not, I'm just saying I don't.

Tua himself stated "near the end of training camp that he had not been tackled since the injury" at Alabama. This was around August 13th, according to the linked article. I don't know how you can reasonably claim Tua had a real opportunity to win the starting job if Miami wasn't even letting him get tackled in practice two weeks before Week 1.

Here we get to a major point: I don't believe that Tua plays at all in 2020 if the Dolphins didn't know they were looking at a probable top-5 pick courtesy of Houston, and Adam Schefter reported as much. When you look at how the team handled Tua struggling down the stretch, for instance in Week 11 when they pulled him in the two-minute drill for Ryan Fitzpatrick, I'm even more convinced of that. Unless you believe Tua was playing significantly better in practice than in live games, there's no way they thought he was a better starting option than Fitzpatrick when they decided to start him, which means that was a decision made to evaluate Tua so that they knew what they had in him.

I am aware of what these teams said about holding competition at the quarterback position in training camp. But NFL teams lie all the time, and I am a big believer in actions speaking louder than words. I don't believe these teams did anything to back up the rhetoric of open QB competitions, and in Herbert's case, Lynn didn't even really commit to that much.

[incognito_man]

8 hours ago, Blue said:

There is absolutely no way to spin that where either Love or the coaching doesn't come across as having absolutely no idea what they're doing.

So foolish.

Cannot understand context. I'll never understand why you put 100x the effort into defending a terrible point that it would take to actually understand the situation.

You must like digging a big *** hole with a spoon for weeks when there's a backhoe with keys in the ignition and 4 page users manual on the seat, but you can't be bothered to read it and prefer spooning instead.

Edited April 7, 2021 by incognito_man

[HolmesPriest]

No

[ThatJaxxenGuy]

You’d have to ask the Packers. If they think he’s a franchise QB then no. If they don’t then ya they’d trade him. 

[The Helicopter]

I read the first and last page. Ya'll need GF's or another hobby.

[SteelKing728]

On 4/6/2021 at 1:27 AM, incognito_man said:

This.

This discussion has happened like 4 times on the GB forum already and eventually everyone finally comes to understand and accept even someone so wise and brilliant and all-knowing as @Blue cannot come up with a reasonable trade scenario for Love exactly because nobody (except one side) knows what he's worth.

If he looks great: GB won't trade him

If he looks bad: GB can't trade him because every team would become immediately suspicious why they're trading away a first round pick they had no intention of getting value out of in year 1 anyway

He's, at the same time, worth several top 10 picks and none at all. He is Schrödinger's trade value. 

I wonder if he can get up to HUNDLEYMANIA value?!?!?

[CrazyJoeDavola]

13 minutes ago, SteelKing728 said:

I wonder if he can get up to HUNDLEYMANIA value?!?!?

We need a preseason for that. 

[Shanedorf]

1 hour ago, incognito_man said:

So foolish.

Who's foolish ? The fool who clearly states his brain is not open to any new information or the guy on the internet still trying to change that fool's mind ?

You know who else is foolish ?  bears/vikes fans lecturing the Packers on how to handle the QB position. LOL
 

[ReadyToThump]

5 minutes ago, Shanedorf said:

Who's foolish ? The fool who clearly states his brain is not open to any new information or the guy on the internet still trying to change that fool's mind ?

You know who else is foolish ?  bears/vikes fans lecturing the Packers on how to handle the QB position. LOL
 

Ba dum tssss. 

Or something like that. 

[incognito_man]

23 minutes ago, Shanedorf said:

Who's foolish ? The fool who clearly states his brain is not open to any new information or the guy on the internet still trying to change that fool's mind ?

You know who else is foolish ?  bears/vikes fans lecturing the Packers on how to handle the QB position. LOL
 

need to keep that mark twain quote in mind more often

[incognito_man]

1 hour ago, The Helicopter said:

I read the first and last page. Ya'll need GF's or another hobby.

three of each is already too much

[Nut]

This is a total no brainer. Love was a waste of a pick.