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August4th

By August4th
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MWil23

MWil23

Posted
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1 minute ago, Starless said:

Oh, also Russell Wilson deserves a lot more blame for throwing the goal line pick in SB XLIX than Pete Carroll does for calling the pass. 

@AFlaccoSeagulls see, I'm 100% not alone here and would like to irrationally resume our argument, which you lost btw, for no reason aside from sheer amusement on my end.

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Apparition

Apparition

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29 minutes ago, Starless said:

Oh, also Russell Wilson deserves a lot more blame for throwing the goal line pick in SB XLIX than Pete Carroll does for calling the pass. 

I'm right about this, by the way. 

 

Wilson should've seen Butler breaking on the ball. If he'd come off that read and went to his checkdown (Lynch wheeling out into the flat), it's an easy 6. 

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AFlaccoSeagulls

AFlaccoSeagulls

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45 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

@AFlaccoSeagulls see, I'm 100% not alone here and would like to irrationally resume our argument, which you lost btw, for no reason aside from sheer amusement on my end.

 

16 minutes ago, Starless said:

I'm right about this, by the way. 

 

Wilson should've seen Butler breaking on the ball. If he'd come off that read and went to his checkdown (Lynch wheeling out into the flat), it's an easy 6. 

<climbs on roof top>

<grabs megaphone>

IT WASN'T A READ PLAY, HE HAS NO READS, THERE IS NO CHECK DOWN, IT'S A PRE-SNAP DECISION! THE INTERCEPTION HAPPENS BECAUSE NOT ONLY DOES BRANDON BROWNER MAKE A PERFECT PLAY TO DISRUPT THE PICK, MALCOLM BUTLER MAKES A PERFECT PLAY TO JUMP THE ROUTE.

The only argument you can even possibly make here is that the throw wasn't perfect (it wasn't). Pete didn't call a pass IIRC, Bevell/Pete gave Russ 2 plays and Russ chose pass based on the formation/personnel for the Patriots.

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Apparition

Apparition

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1 minute ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

 

<climbs on roof top>

<grabs megaphone>

IT WASN'T A READ PLAY, HE HAS NO READS, THERE IS NO CHECK DOWN, IT'S A PRE-SNAP DECISION! THE INTERCEPTION HAPPENS BECAUSE NOT ONLY DOES BRANDON BROWNER MAKE A PERFECT PLAY TO DISRUPT THE PICK, MALCOLM BUTLER MAKES A PERFECT PLAY TO JUMP THE ROUTE.

The only argument you can even possibly make here is that the throw wasn't perfect (it wasn't). Pete didn't call a pass IIRC, Bevell/Pete gave Russ 2 plays and Russ chose pass based on the formation/personnel for the Patriots.

sources?

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AFlaccoSeagulls

AFlaccoSeagulls

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3 minutes ago, Starless said:

sources?

Mina Kimes on Twitter for the past 7(?) years. I know it's lazy to just say "yeah this person said it and I believe them", but she's pretty damn reliable when it comes to Seahawks information and right now I'm much too lazy to go digging through 7 years of articles about this play to find the direct sources.

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AFlaccoSeagulls

AFlaccoSeagulls

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Just now, iknowcool said:

Butler started breaking on the ball before it left Wilson's hand.  Was he really not in a position where he could adjust his read?  I find that hard to believe.

It's a catch-and-throw play, the entire thing predicates on the play happening before the defender can react. In this case, Butler and Browner due to film study just beat their man.

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JAF-N72EX

JAF-N72EX

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@Starless @MWil23 @AFlaccoSeagulls

TL;DR:  Pete got out-coached, Butler executed a good game plan designed and orchestrated by Belichick, and Pete quickly became yet another victim of over-thinking it when he shouldn't have.  

FWIW, this is not based on my opinion.  This is from Belichick and Lombardi themselves (two people who were there) from Lombardi's book Gridiron Genius (yes, Lombardi, the guy who the trophy was named after).  It's an excellent book if any is interested.

Pete did call a pass play and the throw was a pre-snap read.  Belichick called it before the play was even ran based on the Seahawks reactions on the sideline and sheer gut feeling.  He knew it was going to be a pass, and he also knew it wasn't going to be something like a corner route, back shoulder, or deep in the end zone.....he knew it was going to be a quick 1-yard read.  He watched the Seahawks sideline between plays and they looked confused so he yelled into his headset  "Just play the goal line". Flores (the ST coordinator sent in Butler--who was not the usual player in these situations--read on).  This is why you will see every corner jam their guy at the snap, except for Lockett because he was using Kearse as a pick, and why you see Butler meet Lockett right at the goal line.

To understand this better, you also have to understand what led up to this.  Belichick wasn't happy with the GL defense the year before this and he aimed to fix it in the offseason.  He felt more teams were starting to use more spread looks (3 WR or more) in GL situations to beat traditional 6-2 looks and felt this was the reason why. Basically thinking they were using an outdated format and need to tweak it.

So he told his staff at the start of the offseason they needed to find a way to stop 3 WRs.  But the solution wasn't as easy as just replacing one safety in the formation with an extra corner because this would also mean taking one of his best players (McCourty) off the field and Belichick didn't like that idea either. That's a big risk.  He eventually conceded and did it anyways.

Long story short, the Patriots spent 1000's of hours in practice, preseason, and film study to prepare for these type of situations, and they never had to use it one time during the entire regular season or post-season.....until that ONE play.

--excerpt from the book--

Bill was focused intently on the Seattle sideline. From his vantage point across the field at the University of Phoenix Stadium, he sensed confusion and indecision in his opponent. “Something just did not look right,” he told me later. Instead of calling a time-out, an eerily calm Belichick just stared straight ahead, a predator stalking his prey. Suddenly, he burst into action, becoming the aggressor. Shouting into his headset, Belichick commanded: “Just play goal line.” Except he didn’t mean our traditional 6-2 goal line. Instead, our safeties coach, Brian Flores, yelled, “Malcolm, go!” and undrafted rookie Malcolm Butler entered the game as the third corner.

Everyone had expected Belichick to take a time-out to preserve precious seconds for his team if they got the ball back after the Seahawks inevitably took the lead—everyone including Seattle’s coach, Pete Carroll. When no time-out came, I suspect it might have thrown him just a little. Whatever the case, Carroll looked to the field, saw the six Patriots defensive linemen there, and yelled into his own headset, “They’re in goal line!” His countercall, sending in three receivers, was intended to spread the field. Instead, it played right into Belichick’s trap.

I’ve studied the NFL’s smartest men my whole career, and it’s never anything less than breathtaking when you realize they are operating on a different level than their peers. Believing they had speed and horizontal space on their side, Seattle stacked two receivers on the right. At the snap, though, Butler, a cornerback skilled in man coverage—as opposed to the safety who ordinarily would have been in that spot—expertly read the play. He exploded toward wideout Ricardo Lockette, beating him to the ball and securing the most critical interception in Super Bowl history, not to mention yet another Lombardi Trophy for Belichick and the Patriots.

Lombardi, Michael (2018-09-10T23:58:59). Gridiron Genius . Crown. Kindle Edition.

 

Now imagine how different the outcome might've been if Belichick had stuck with his traditional 6-2 defense?  A linebacker would've been covering Lockett and although the LBer would've still hit Lockett, chances are he drops the pass and the Seahawks get 2 more shot at the end zone.  Given a second shot, would Carroll (while still wiping layers of sweat off his head) have gone back to the basics, realizing that Belichick is too smart of a coach to try and out-coach? 

My opinion, I'm not sure. It's easy to say "well he's got another chance so let's stick with Marshawn".  But would belichick be expecting it too at that point?  Who knows.  God I love the science behind coaching lol. The job ain't easy that's for sure.

 

 

 

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