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51 minutes ago, Danger said:

Or you and all Ravens fans have a confirmation bias from that one moron who's opinion doesn't matter.

Hey there's no need to talk about Chiefs fans like that

Edited by ThatJaxxenGuy
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1 hour ago, FrantikRam said:

 

It's arguable that prime Watt was better than prime Donald, but it wouldn't be by much

Find me anything Donald did that compares to Watt's 2014 season. 

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4 hours ago, FrantikRam said:

 

He might be. But he's a less successful QB than Jared Goff, and while their play styles are different, Mayfield looks like a QB who will look good an elite OL and running game, not so much without it, so...

Whatever your opinion of Goff is should probably be your opinion of Baker.

We will see what he does this year. If he plays like he did the last half of 2020, then he’s a lot better. 

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1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

We will see what he does this year. If he plays like he did the last half of 2020, then he’s a lot better. 

 

Depends.

Problem is, Goff had what Baker had in 2017/2018 and was significantly better than Baker was last year. Baker needs to have a better season, then when he gets paid and the OL falls off he needs to keep it up.

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1 hour ago, ET80 said:

Find me anything Donald did that compares to Watt's 2014 season. 

 

Well let's start here: what was his double team rate in 2014? Last year Donald was doubled 70% of the time, which I believe blows away anything Watt has ever faced, but I'm not sure.

When you consider his impact, it can be argued that it was larger for facing so many more double teams.

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3 hours ago, Uncle Buck said:

Ravens fans tend to be a little overly sensitive when it comes to their quarterback. 

No ish. 

Big time.

 

sad chris crocker GIF

 

Leave Lamar alooone!

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Mario lemieux was as good as Wayne gretzky. 

Sorry, I don't really have any football ones

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1 hour ago, FrantikRam said:

Well let's start here: what was his double team rate in 2014? Last year Donald was doubled 70% of the time, which I believe blows away anything Watt has ever faced, but I'm not sure.

I can't seem to locate 2014 numbers, but I would imagine the figure is pretty high. Not 70%, but high.

So, that's one check in favor for Donald. Now, any other stat...such as sacks, TFLs, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries, pass deflections, Interceptions, TDs?

No? Just that one stat?

Oh. Ok.

That's good for at least >>> then.

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2 hours ago, ET80 said:

I can't seem to locate 2014 numbers, but I would imagine the figure is pretty high. Not 70%, but high.

So, that's one check in favor for Donald. Now, any other stat...such as sacks, TFLs, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries, pass deflections, Interceptions, TDs?

No? Just that one stat?

Oh. Ok.

That's good for at least >>> then.

 

Well, the double teams obviously impact that pretty severely. A good example is TJ Watt vs Donald this year - the stats favored Watt, but Donald was the better player, and probably (I say probably because it's hard to compare their situations) had the better season despite the stat difference.

Now, I'm NOT actually saying that Donald's season was better. Just that because of the difference in double team rate (from looking at typical elite edge rushers Watt was probably double teamed 50% of the time), I'd say it's tough to declare a winner.

There are other things that would have to go into it I think. Team defensive rankings, sack rankings, situational/clutch play (for example, timing of sacks - a sack when you're up by multiple scores late in the fourth quarter don't mean as much)

But I guess at the end of the day, this is a thread about unpopular opinions so I should just let it go.

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25 minutes ago, FrantikRam said:

Well, the double teams obviously impact that pretty severely.

But, we don't know what Watt's double team percentage is in 2014 - it's not 70%, but do you think it's so far off for such a discrepancy across the board? (And let's not mince words, there's a discrepancy).

Furthermore, how do double teams impact forced fumbles, fumble recoveries, interceptions, pass deflections? If anything, PDs are a product of a double team - a guy can't get to the QB, so they get a hand up.

25 minutes ago, FrantikRam said:

There are other things that would have to go into it I think. Team defensive rankings, sack rankings, situational/clutch play (for example, timing of sacks - a sack when you're up by multiple scores late in the fourth quarter don't mean as much)

IIRC, Watt has been on higher ranked defenses pretty much until his injuries started to catch up to him. We'll have to validate, but I remember this being a huge argument point I've pointed out. There were times Donald was on a defense somewhere in the 20s, right? I don't think healthy Watt was ever on a defense lower than 13th.

There's also supporting cast - Donald wins out on this one at least, as Watt never really had anyone outside of Jadevion Clowney a few games a year. Aqub Talib, Marcus Peters, Jalen Ramsey, Michael Brockers, Dante Fowler vs... um, Bernardrick McKinney? That one time Whitney Mercilus wasn't a hologram? Ok, Jonathan Joseph and Kareem Jackson were above average... But that's it. So, Prime Watt is able to produce at a higher rate, with lesser talent around him. He's not doubled as much, but he doesn't have nearly the talent around him to take advantage of it... but Prime Watt didn't care.

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8 minutes ago, ET80 said:

But, we don't know what Watt's double team percentage is in 2014 - it's not 70%, but do you think it's so far off for such a discrepancy across the board? (And let's not mince words, there's a discrepancy).

Furthermore, how do double teams impact forced fumbles, fumble recoveries, interceptions, pass deflections? If anything, PDs are a product of a double team - a guy can't get to the QB, so they get a hand up.

IIRC, Watt has been on higher ranked defenses pretty much until his injuries started to catch up to him. We'll have to validate, but I remember this being a huge argument point I've pointed out. There were times Donald was on a defense somewhere in the 20s, right? I don't think healthy Watt was ever on a defense lower than 13th.

There's also supporting cast - Donald wins out on this one at least, as Watt never really had anyone outside of Jadevion Clowney a few games a year. Aqub Talib, Marcus Peters, Jalen Ramsey, Michael Brockers, Dante Fowler vs... um, Bernardrick McKinney? That one time Whitney Mercilus wasn't a hologram? Ok, Jonathan Joseph and Kareem Jackson were above average... But that's it. So, Prime Watt is able to produce at a higher rate, with lesser talent around him. He's not doubled as much, but he doesn't have nearly the talent around him to take advantage of it... but Prime Watt didn't care.

 

 

I think the discrepancy may have been 20-30%, which definitely could have made a difference.

So 2018 was an interesting year - our defense was statistically below average, but Donald made huge plays in close games all year. He put up few stats in the playoffs, but the defense held Tom Brady to his worst Super Bowl performance and played well enough to win. Not sure how to quantify that.

Clowney is more talented than anyone AD has played with up front. You cite Fowler, but he's been a monumental bust in JAX and ATL. Only success was playing next to Donald. Same for Floyd. You probably can't name another pass rusher that Donald has played with the past three years. He raises the level of play of everyone in the front 7.

Watts season probably was better overall. I just don't think if was by very much.

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6 hours ago, Forge said:

Mario lemieux was as good as Wayne gretzky. 

Sorry, I don't really have any football ones

I've actually heard a few people who were really into hockey who said the same thing.  I was pretty surprised because I always thought Gretzky was the MJ of hockey.  I did get to see Gretzky live early in his career when he was playing for Edmonton when they came to play the North Stars.  The guy's stick handling was incredible.

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49 minutes ago, Uncle Buck said:

I've actually heard a few people who were really into hockey who said the same thing.  I was pretty surprised because I always thought Gretzky was the MJ of hockey.  I did get to see Gretzky live early in his career when he was playing for Edmonton when they came to play the North Stars.  The guy's stick handling was incredible.

In terms of career production dominance, there's hard to find anyone that is as dominant as Wayne. He was great and had the good fortune of health. That wasn't the case for Mario. @beekay414 and I could probably write you a book on how absurd Mario was. Wayne is the great one, Mario is the Magnificent One. 

Bottom line is, he was snakebit a little by the era, as the mid 90's and early 2000's ushered in new defensive hockey, better goalies and bigger goalie equipment. More importantly, Mario was just betrayed by his body, though I think he was every bit as good as Wayne. 

They said that by the end of his 4th season, he couldn't even tie his skates on his own any more (keep in mind, he was 22 at this point). He had to have multiple surgeries for herniated discs. By 25, he had developed Vertebral Osteomyelitis. By 28, he was diagnosed with Cancer in the middle of possibly the most dominant season in NHL history. Later in his career he developed an irregular heartbeat.  He once scored 45 points in 10 games and I can't even begin to put that into a comparison with football. At 37, he averaged 1.36 ppg. It was the second highest in the NHL lol. Even last year, that still would have been the 4th highest.  To do that at 37 was preposterous (there were 5 30 year olds who average 1 ppg last year, and non were older than 33 and only one averaged close to 1.36).  And he was doing that in an age .906 save percentages. The last time Wayne came close to that was age 35 in an era of .896 save percentages, and the last time he actually topped it was at 33, when the save percentage was .893. 

Hockey was robbed by not have a fully healthy Super Mario. 

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1 minute ago, Forge said:

In terms of career production dominance, there's hard to find anyone that is as dominant as Wayne. He was great and had the good fortune of health. That wasn't the case for Mario. @beekay414 and I could probably write you a book on how absurd Mario was. Wayne is the great one, Mario is the Magnificent One. 

Bottom line is, he was snakebit a little by the era, as the mid 90's and early 2000's ushered in new defensive hockey, better goalies and bigger goalie equipment. More importantly, Mario was just betrayed by his body, though I think he was every bit as good as Wayne. 

They said that by the end of his 4th season, he couldn't even tie his skates on his own any more (keep in mind, he was 22 at this point). He had to have multiple surgeries for herniated discs. By 25, he had developed Vertebral Osteomyelitis. By 28, he was diagnosed with Cancer in the middle of possibly the most dominant season in NHL history. Later in his career he developed an irregular heartbeat.  He once scored 45 points in 10 games and I can't even begin to put that into a comparison with football. At 37, he averaged 1.36 ppg. It was the second highest in the NHL lol. Even last year, that still would have been the 4th highest.  To do that at 37 was preposterous (there were 5 30 year olds who average 1 ppg last year, and non were older than 33 and only one averaged close to 1.36).  And he was doing that in an age .906 save percentages. The last time Wayne came close to that was age 35 in an era of .896 save percentages, and the last time he actually topped it was at 33, when the save percentage was .893. 

Hockey was robbed by not have a fully healthy Super Mario. 

Preach

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