Wish upon a 'Star'

[ThatJerkDave]

11 hours ago, pgwingman said:

So that's my question. Who is the draft pick? What round would you pick him in?

Vernon Scott.  236 overall, 7th round, 2020.

[vegas492]

15 hours ago, craig said:

QB's/coordinators often target the weakest link.  Opponents kinda knew Jaire wasn't that and knew where he was; after a while they just picked on more vulnerable areas.  Barry talked about mixing things up, so that QB doesn't necessarily know who's covering what.  There may be some value in that. 

Improving the weakest individual link(s) could also help.  

That's exactly why I think we will see GB select a "star" type player for the slot relatively early.  Holland really fits that role.  I think Molden does as well.  

But if we get that kind of guy to replace Sullivan, all of a sudden we have a really strong secondary that can play a lot of those "games" with offenses.

Guess I still feel like JOK isn't quite the coverage kind of guy I want in that role.  And since he's the one I'm worried about, we are going to love him and make him a Packer.

[craig]

3 hours ago, vegas492 said:

That's exactly why I think we will see GB select a "star" type player for the slot relatively early.  Holland really fits that role.  I think Molden does as well.  

But if we get that kind of guy to replace Sullivan, all of a sudden we have a really strong secondary that can play a lot of those "games" with offenses.

Guess I still feel like JOK isn't quite the coverage kind of guy I want in that role.  And since he's the one I'm worried about, we are going to love him and make him a Packer.

Vegas, what is your thought about Chili's post yesterday, distinguishing between Star vs Nickleback?  Do the Packers have to get a linebacker-capacities Star?  Or would a Nickleback on the cornerback end of the continuum be fine?  

Cannon noted that Barry alluded to Ronde Barber, a 5'10" speedster, and Jalen Ramsey, so perhaps Barry's star may not require linebacker-type size or function?  RT then noted that the Rams listed 5'9" Darius Williams as RILB.  

Any more insights would be welcome! 

I'm not sure how to think about these issues, or what exactly Barry is looking for from "Star".  Part of my thinks that whether it's a Derwin James or a Minkah or Matthieu, or a Ronde Barber or Charles Woodson, that the Packers could put ANY of those types of good players to great use, whether or not they have linebacker-type bulk.  Get a good, smart, quick, instinctive player and use what he does well, rather than fixate on a particular physical profile?    

A huge number of snaps went to Redmond, Raven, and Sullivan last year, playing non-boundary.   Last year there were 1961 Packer defensive snaps that were played by Sullivan, Redmond, Greene, Jackson, Hollman, Scott, Black, and Samuels.   More than twice as many snaps were played by those guys as by Jaire (900).  1232 by non-Sullivan guys.  There are a LOT of snaps to go around.  And there were a LOT of snaps played by defenders that QB's preferred to target rather than Jaire.  So I'm kinda thinking that any excellent player can be put to excellent use in the secondary, it doesn't necessarily have to be a guy with prototypical Star physicality.  And certainly there is opportunity for young returnees like Scott or Black or Ento to earn more of those snaps.  

[vegas492]

Not that I know anything regarding that role and how to fill it.

But from my point of view?  Coverage skills over linebacker skills.  Talking about a safety with cover skills, but who is also a willing tackler.  It all just fits Holland really well.

JOK?  I know he can cover TE's, but I think true WR's are going to be tough for him.  That's why I'd lean towards the safety with cover skills.  But that is just me.  No clue how GB or the Barry feels about this.  But I think we will find out pretty soon.

[MacReady]

Maybe we should have drafted Winfield instead of Jordan Love.  We’d still have Pettine, but also a Super Bowl win.

I’ll see myself out.

[packfanfb]

27 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

Maybe we should have drafted Winfield instead of Jordan Love.  We’d still have Pettine, but also a Super Bowl win.

I’ll see myself out.

How dare you question the Love pick. 

[VonKarman]

1 hour ago, Outpost31 said:

Maybe we should have drafted Winfield instead of Jordan Love.  We’d still have Pettine, but also a Super Bowl win.

I’ll see myself out.

Pettine would have ruined Winfield Jr.

Edited April 23, 2021 by VonKarman

[R T]

2 hours ago, Outpost31 said:

Maybe we should have drafted Winfield instead of Jordan Love.  We’d still have Pettine, but also a Super Bowl win.

I’ll see myself out.

Trollin' trollin' trollin', keep them doggies rollin'. 

[Les Punting]

18 minutes ago, VonKarman said:

Pettine would have ruined Winfield Jr.

Winfield yielded a passer rating of 147 with a 77% completion rate. Was there a single safety or slot who performed worse on those measures? 

 

[James Lofton]

Brandin Echols, CB, Kentucky: 4.36s

Michael Carter II, DB, Duke: 4.36s

Micah Parsons, OLB, Penn State: 4.36s

[ReadyToThump]

Everybody and their mothers running 4.3's this year lol.

[incognito_man]

Has anyone I don't have on ignore mentioned Darnell Savage yet?

[VonKarman]

5 hours ago, incognito_man said:

Has anyone I don't have on ignore mentioned Darnell Savage yet?

No, only outpost has mentioned it.

[Dubz41]

On 4/23/2021 at 4:39 PM, Les Punting said:

Winfield yielded a passer rating of 147 with a 77% completion rate. Was there a single safety or slot who performed worse on those measures? 

 

There you go ruining the narrative with those damn statistics.  If we would have drafted Winfield in the first round the hindsighters would have been in a rage.  Funny how some think a safety with the above stats would have put us over the hump.

[MrBobGray]

Star is just Saban/Belichick terminology for the nickle back.  It gets talked about like it's different, but that's more or less how everyone plays the nickle.  Your nickle guy is inside, closer to the ball, which means he's going to take on more LB style roles just based on alignment, pending the play call.  It's why defensive play-calling isn't as simple as just calling Cover-2 man or whatever and taking a nap; the same play call rolls out completely differently in base vs nickle vs dime vs etc. multiplied by the vast array of offensive formations out there.  If you have a 190 lb CB who's supposed to spill the RB to the alley, you better be sure he's up for that level of physicality.  And of course that's not even addressing that your nickle plays vastly different coverage roles depending on man vs zone coverage; in a cover-2 look he's playing the seam, in cover-3 he's playing hook/flat, in man he's either got the slot receiver or the TE and even just that is a real big apples to oranges in coverage.  

The thing is, Jaire is faaaaaar and away the best guy on the team for Star.  He'll ragdoll blockers in the run game, he can play any kind of coverage and he's an aggressive blitzer.  He's also far and away the best outside CB on the team, which means that's where he's going.  I'd honestly pound the table with this group to give Jaire a shot inside and run Jackson/King outside (or Hollman/Ento/whoever jumps at boundary CB), but in today's NFL there's a negative chance of that happening.  So with Jaire off the table, #2 is probably Savage, for basically all of the same reasons.  He doesn't have Jaire's strength or disregard for human life, but he's aggressive and unafraid of contact, and he can play any kind of coverage as well.  Plus he's just so damn fast he can erase a lot of mistakes.  

Unfortunately, he's probably off the table for the same reason Jaire is: if you've got a safety you can play at robber who shines like Savage who can also rotate anywhere else for misdirection, you probably aren't leaving him to ground up at the nickle.  I actually do like Sullivan there, there's far worse fits, but I think teams have started to lock in on the areas he struggles and he'll be an increasing liability if you're playing him 75% of snaps.  He's physical with blockers and willing to throw his body around, plus he's quick as a cat, but the lack of size and speed both means he has a lot of bad match-ups in the slot.  If they let the CBs actually press unlike Pettine, he may still be able to hang more often, but you're looking to upgrade him if at all possible.

My surprise, "probably a stupid idea but whatever" pick for the spot is actually Josh Jackson.  His physicality has come a long way thanks to all his time as a punt gunner, and he's by far at his best facing the QB.  Think you could do some fun stuff with a King/Jackson/Alexander line up from D-left to D-right, especially in a C2 system (which I think Barry likes to run?) - Jackson dropping to cover seam/hook is pretty much your best chance at getting those Iowa ball skills to finally show up in the pros.