The Car Thread

[diehardlionfan]

1 hour ago, Tugboat said:

Depending on the car and the motor, the first oil change is often a much shorter interval during the "break-in" period.  It's generally good practice to get that original oil out a bit earlier, since it tends to accumulate a bit more metallic particulates than usual as the engine wears in.  Gives you a chance to make sure there's not any unusual or concerning wear going on too.

 

After that first change, your intervals will probably jump up to that 8000km range you're expecting.

Some new vehicles are shipped with the optimum oil for break in. They will tell you not to dump the oil early. While years ago dumping the oil on new vehicles was required manufacturing processes take care of that issue now. Much closer tolerances, cylinder wall surface improvements etc. 

Any metal that can damage an engine is removed by the oil filter anyway.

Lots of old wives tales about engine oil and break in periods etc. 

My favourite is people suggesting black oil means it’s time for it to be changed. Many modern oils have additives that will turn oil black. 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

I use synthetic and change it every 5k.

Overkill?  I don’t care know.

[Tugboat]

6 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said:

Some new vehicles are shipped with the optimum oil for break in. They will tell you not to dump the oil early. While years ago dumping the oil on new vehicles was required manufacturing processes take care of that issue now. Much closer tolerances, cylinder wall surface improvements etc. 

Any metal that can damage an engine is removed by the oil filter anyway.

Lots of old wives tales about engine oil and break in periods etc. 

My favourite is people suggesting black oil means it’s time for it to be changed. Many modern oils have additives that will turn oil black. 

You're right, that black oil doesn't mean squat.  My car will blacken oil in a week basically.  That doesn't mean a lot, especially with turbocharged engines and modern emissions and venting systems.  Some engines are just really bad in that regard, but thrive just fine with longer change intervals anyway.

But particulates aren't always caught by a filter unless there's something seriously wrong (which is part of the point of an early first oil interval - you can catch a "lemon" motor early).  Even healthy brand new engines do tend to contribute much smaller "microscopic" metallic particulates.  Which is fine and normal...but can potentially contribute to degradation of the oil itself via shearing and a breakdown of integrity.  Which is why first oil change intervals are often shortened beyond the "typical" life of that oil.

 

Tolerances aren't like "the olden days" , but break-in can still be a thing.  It depends on the motor, but the idea of "special magic break-in oil" is basically an old wives tale as well.  There's absolutely no harm in getting that original oil out after 4-5k kms like the question was suggesting.  In most cases, the only "special" thing about that break-in oil...is that it's been "contaminated" with all the various zinc and molybdenum rich compounds they've lubricated all the various components with while installing them.  4-5 thousand kms into that motors life, you're basically just recirculating all those various particulates.  There's no compelling reason i can think of, *not to* change the oil at that point.

 

I mean, even if that's not on the mileage schedule and there is no "break in" shortened interval on the actual service schedule for that particular car...a 2018 vehicle bought 4 months ago...that oil has been in there for a year now.  Really not a bad idea to swap it out.

Unless we're buying into the idea of that magic super precious special break-in oil or something.

[Tugboat]

25 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I use synthetic and change it every 5k.

Overkill?  I don’t care know.

Does anybody even use...conventional non-synthetic oil anymore?

Other than like...classic cars, or lawn tractors?

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 minute ago, Tugboat said:

Does anybody even use...conventional non-synthetic oil anymore?

Other than like...classic cars, or lawn tractors?

No clue, but I’d hope not.

[Tugboat]

5 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

No clue, but I’d hope not.

I mean, it is always still in the stores.  But i always look at it and wonder..."what efffing moron just bought Motomaster Conventional Oil" for like a few bucks less than whatever synthetic is on sale that week.

One day i should pop one of those store brand conventional oils open and see if they even have oil in them.  I bet they're probably just props.  Nobody buys that.  Right?

[diehardlionfan]

9 hours ago, Tugboat said:

You're right, that black oil doesn't mean squat.  My car will blacken oil in a week basically.  That doesn't mean a lot, especially with turbocharged engines and modern emissions and venting systems.  Some engines are just really bad in that regard, but thrive just fine with longer change intervals anyway.

But particulates aren't always caught by a filter unless there's something seriously wrong (which is part of the point of an early first oil interval - you can catch a "lemon" motor early).  Even healthy brand new engines do tend to contribute much smaller "microscopic" metallic particulates.  Which is fine and normal...but can potentially contribute to degradation of the oil itself via shearing and a breakdown of integrity.  Which is why first oil change intervals are often shortened beyond the "typical" life of that oil.

 

Tolerances aren't like "the olden days" , but break-in can still be a thing.  It depends on the motor, but the idea of "special magic break-in oil" is basically an old wives tale as well.  There's absolutely no harm in getting that original oil out after 4-5k kms like the question was suggesting.  In most cases, the only "special" thing about that break-in oil...is that it's been "contaminated" with all the various zinc and molybdenum rich compounds they've lubricated all the various components with while installing them.  4-5 thousand kms into that motors life, you're basically just recirculating all those various particulates.  There's no compelling reason i can think of, *not to* change the oil at that point.

 

I mean, even if that's not on the mileage schedule and there is no "break in" shortened interval on the actual service schedule for that particular car...a 2018 vehicle bought 4 months ago...that oil has been in there for a year now.  Really not a bad idea to swap it out.

Unless we're buying into the idea of that magic super precious special break-in oil or something.

The last time I was in an engine plant all new engines were run on a stand so the validity of breaking in an engine is a bit of a stretch. Obviously you don’t get in the car and red line it through the gear box although some still prescribe to the full load break in theory.

Again modern tolerances are so fine everything is set. 

Theres no harm in changing oil early.theres no harm in following Jiffy Lubes Old 3000 mile oil change schedule either. It’s just wasting good oil.

I’m certainly not the absolute authority but i’m Old, Ive owned far more vehicles than I should have. I started pulling wrenches doing routine maintenance for my father who owned an oil field trucking company. So, I’ve seen allot of oil. I’ve done 100’s oil changes on 1960’s and 70’s era Kenworth and International trucks powered by Cummins and I’ve not once found fragments of metal remotely large enough to damage an engine. I also did lube on his company cars, pickups, forklift, cranes etc. We monitored oil condition closely because of the severe conditions the equipment was exposed to. Oil was drained into a container for inspection which once completed was drained into a holding tank. Does it happen? Probably, occasionally, but it’s not likely. Given the vast improvements in machining which allows minuscule tolerances I expect it’s  now very remote. Of course I’ve now jinxed myself and my next vehicle will change my experience.

I think it’s one of those issues where we all have different experiences and trust in those. Bottom line though, it doesn’t hurt anything to change oil. If thats what someone does for piece of mind then so be it.

i’m rambling now. 🤠 I’ve had cars that I drove less than 500km per year. I changed the oil when I prepared the car every spring and I changed the oil every fall when I put it away for the winter. In my pea sized brain those vehicles received that level of care because of how I wanted them to age. Heck, one of the cars never saw the rain. The other a light sprinkle, once. 

 

[diehardlionfan]

8 hours ago, Tugboat said:

I mean, it is always still in the stores.  But i always look at it and wonder..."what efffing moron just bought Motomaster Conventional Oil" for like a few bucks less than whatever synthetic is on sale that week.

One day i should pop one of those store brand conventional oils open and see if they even have oil in them.  I bet they're probably just props.  Nobody buys that.  Right?

Well, some do. Conventional oil flows slower so you can make the argument that older engines or those with lots of experience get better protected from the slower oil. 

I don’t know how many 2 stroke engines are still around that require mixing the oil with the gas but that was a thing.

Personally (here’s that experience thing again) the only reason I use synthetic is because that’s what’s recommended. When synthetics first came out they were terrible. Destroyed so many seals, gaskets etc. Now, that was a long time ago but when products betray your trust, sometimes you never trust them again. 

With so many things technology has provided overkill. Motor oil works well in most applications. I’ve read much about synthetic oils performing 50% better (what are they measuring?) but what does that mean for practical purposes? 

Most of us don’t need the added protection because we don’t run the engine at peak loads etc. Just normal driving. So the high performance aspects aren’t required. Increasing engine life is an interesting point but is it really valid? How many vehicles get junked because of the engine? Is there a point to having one component outlast vehicle viability? I don’t have the answer I’m just throwing it out there. 

This summer I requested quotes from 4 companies, on two deck variations.

One company provided me a quote, on the larger project of $31,000.00. They quoted $18,000.00 for the smaller project. I listened to the presentation. This company built stuff the right way. This deck would, no doubt, last 45 years. If I were building a house, he’s my guy. As I explained to him I don’t need or desire to pay for a deck that is built well beyond code. I’m just looking for this little bit of deck which is two steps down from my upper deck. I’m 63 so I’m not in this house forever. So, rather than overbuild, I purchased all the materials for the smaller project, hired a local handyman and it cost $2700.00. The deck will still be here after I’ve moved on.

I guess my point is I’m not sure engine life is a valid concern. To some yes, but most of us don’t own a vehicle long enough for it to be a concern. This also ties into the thought that conventional oil flows slower so it provide’s better protection to more experienced engines.

Perhaps it’s time oil changes went the way of grease jobs. If they can’t already build a largely self contained engine, they must be close.

Ive heard a great deal about the cost of synthetics but based on my sharpened pencil it’s a red herring. If you look at the longevity of the synthetic I think it ends up costing about 4 bucks more a month. Those that use conventional could make the case they can go longer between oil changes than advertised by monitoring their oil. Perhaps the same can be said for synthetic. Personally I just think the money argument is invalid. 4 bucks a month seems like pretty cheap insurance from a potentially large bill. 

Sorry for rambling. I never thought a discussion about engine lubricants could be this interesting.

 

[Tugboat]

1 hour ago, diehardlionfan said:

Well, some do. Conventional oil flows slower so you can make the argument that older engines or those with lots of experience get better protected from the slower oil. 

I don’t know how many 2 stroke engines are still around that require mixing the oil with the gas but that was a thing.

Nobody is ******* talking about two strokes dude.  Why did you even bring that up?

1 hour ago, diehardlionfan said:

Personally (here’s that experience thing again) the only reason I use synthetic is because that’s what’s recommended. When synthetics first came out they were terrible. Destroyed so many seals, gaskets etc. Now, that was a long time ago but when products betray your trust, sometimes you never trust them again. 

With so many things technology has provided overkill. Motor oil works well in most applications. I’ve read much about synthetic oils performing 50% better (what are they measuring?) but what does that mean for practical purposes? 

Most of us don’t need the added protection because we don’t run the engine at peak loads etc. Just normal driving. So the high performance aspects aren’t required. Increasing engine life is an interesting point but is it really valid? How many vehicles get junked because of the engine? Is there a point to having one component outlast vehicle viability? I don’t have the answer I’m just throwing it out there. 

The thing is...the "added protection" of proper motor oil, at recommended 8-10k or Annual intervals isn't like some great expensive burden.  It's like...less than a big night out.  That keeps your motor vehicle safe an protectected for an entire year...which is even longer than than the hangover will last from a comparatively priced adventure night.

1 hour ago, diehardlionfan said:

This summer I requested quotes from 4 companies, on two deck variations.

One company provided me a quote, on the larger project of $31,000.00. They quoted $18,000.00 for the smaller project. I listened to the presentation. This company built stuff the right way. This deck would, no doubt, last 45 years. If I were building a house, he’s my guy. As I explained to him I don’t need or desire to pay for a deck that is built well beyond code. I’m just looking for this little bit of deck which is two steps down from my upper deck. I’m 63 so I’m not in this house forever. So, rather than overbuild, I purchased all the materials for the smaller project, hired a local handyman and it cost $2700.00. The deck will still be here after I’ve moved on.

Cars aren't ******* decks though.  Is the point i think you're missing.  They're increasingly sophisticated machines.  If you don't care how the item is built beyond your use, so be it...but you're a part of the problem of ****stick throwaway culture today.  And that's kinda despicable.  This is why the earth is polluted with throwaway stuff.  When people treat actual automobiles like that.

 

1 hour ago, diehardlionfan said:

I guess my point is I’m not sure engine life is a valid concern. To some yes, but most of us don’t own a vehicle long enough for it to be a concern. This also ties into the thought that conventional oil flows slower so it provide’s better protection to more experienced engines.

Perhaps it’s time oil changes went the way of grease jobs. If they can’t already build a largely self contained engine, they must be close.

Ive heard a great deal about the cost of synthetics but based on my sharpened pencil it’s a red herring. If you look at the longevity of the synthetic I think it ends up costing about 4 bucks more a month. Those that use conventional could make the case they can go longer between oil changes than advertised by monitoring their oil. Perhaps the same can be said for synthetic. Personally I just think the money argument is invalid. 4 bucks a month seems like pretty cheap insurance from a potentially large bill. 

Sorry for rambling. I never thought a discussion about engine lubricants could be this interesting.

 

Sorry it died and wasted all the production effort.  Better luck next time, right?

[theJ]

19 hours ago, Tugboat said:

Does anybody even use...conventional non-synthetic oil anymore?

Other than like...classic cars, or lawn tractors?

I put synthetic in my mower. Cheaper than buying SAE 30 one quart at a time. 

[Fl0nkerton]

2 hours ago, theJ said:

I put synthetic in my mower. Cheaper than buying SAE 30 one quart at a time. 

Nobody is ******* talking about mowers dude.  Why did you even bring that up?

😉

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

@Tugboat is taking things up a notch 😂 

Never knew motor oil was such a hot button issue for you my man.

[Tugboat]

3 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

@Tugboat is taking things up a notch 😂 

Never knew motor oil was such a hot button issue for you my man.

Oh it is.

 

Lots of things are tbh.  I'm a hot button.

[Tugboat]

5 hours ago, theJ said:

I put synthetic in my mower. Cheaper than buying SAE 30 one quart at a time. 

Pretty much, right?  Everything is at least partially synthetic these days.

[theJ]

3 hours ago, Fl0nkerton said:

Nobody is ******* talking about mowers dude.  Why did you even bring that up?

😉

Am i missing a joke here?  Probably am.

Anyway, tugboat did.  Lawn tractor = mower

I just didn't say lawn tractor, because mine isn't a lawn tractor.