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1 hour ago, scar988 said:

Electric vehicles are a new thing to everyone. I honestly would wait for something that compares to what an electric sedan or electric SUV would be. Getting something small like an Ioniq is a waste of the torque you get from those electric motors and the ioniq isn't a true hybrid. It's a gas engine with an electric assist.

The 2022 Ioniq5 is more like an Edge. It’s also electric not a hybrid.

https://www.hyundaicanada.com/en/coming-soon/2022-ioniq-5

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On 10/22/2021 at 1:17 PM, MrDrew said:

I think you're both making the same point. CVT's are fine. I also think you're right about the 95%. That 95% is what made manual transmissions almost obsolete, they made the small sporty cars like the Celica/240SX die, they made every lineup a large, mid, small, compact CUV because the drive isn't what's important to them. Driving is a chore to most people now.

The CVT is great for what it is. It's less expensive to build/maintain, less moving parts, better economy, smoother. If you just want to get from A to Z, it's perfect. If you want to experience your drive, look out the window because the car isn't going to do it for you. It still makes a lot of sense, but for the 5%, it makes them buy cars that are made for the 1% to get an experience now. That's where the big problem is with a CVT.

It’s hard to make a case that a drive in rush hour traffic, grocery shopping, or taking the kids to school allows a driving experience.

I understand what you’re saying but it’s been my experience that driving, for most people is purpose not experience driven. For most people the type of driving they’re tasked with isn’t conducive to an experience.

Ive always loved driving but constantly shifting in traffic isn’t my idea of a good time.

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7 hours ago, diehardlionfan said:

Ive always loved driving but constantly shifting in traffic isn’t my idea of a good time.

Dual-Clutch. Best of both worlds. Shift for real when you want, auto when you don’t.

And I get that the CVT is cheap to make, gives higher profit margins, and most people just don’t care. Same thing as the CUV. Just sucks that it makes it harder to get fun cars for those of us that like to take the backroad every now and then. 

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On 10/22/2021 at 7:42 AM, Matts4313 said:

It feels like you have some weird thing about how vehicles are built instead of how they are actually used. You gave me hell for the same thing - stating 2 different trucks could be used as trucks (as designed) because the body frames were different. 

 

lol - maybe dont get so caught up in the technical aspect and realize that in practice these things are a lot more similar than you make them sound. Its almost in your mind as if we are talking the differences between a pizza and a steak. When in reality we are talking about a pizza with canadian bacon vs a pizza with pepperoni. 

 

On 10/22/2021 at 9:12 AM, scar988 said:

You're talking mechanical differences. I'm talking consumer experience. 95% of my customers when I sold cars couldn't tell a difference or if they could, they loved it because it was smoother.

I mean yeah, i'm totally hung up on those sort of details. The driving experience, nuance of mechanical differences, and unique capabilities of a vehicle that those factors underpin, are literally the only thing that matters anymore in differentiating one vehicle from another.

If you eliminate that, you're basically just reducing vehicles to a "White Good" Appliance.  Might as well be discussing which toaster or washing machine to get.  Nobody gives a **** what washing machine you pick.  Any one of them will "do the job".  If it washes the clothes, toasts the bread, drives the car from point A to B, it's a checkmark on the functionality box.

But that isn't what makes a good vehicle.

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On 10/22/2021 at 11:17 AM, MrDrew said:

I think you're both making the same point. CVT's are fine. I also think you're right about the 95%. That 95% is what made manual transmissions almost obsolete, they made the small sporty cars like the Celica/240SX die, they made every lineup a large, mid, small, compact CUV because the drive isn't what's important to them. Driving is a chore to most people now.

The CVT is great for what it is. It's less expensive to build/maintain, less moving parts, better economy, smoother. If you just want to get from A to Z, it's perfect. If you want to experience your drive, look out the window because the car isn't going to do it for you. It still makes a lot of sense, but for the 5%, it makes them buy cars that are made for the 1% to get an experience now. That's where the big problem is with a CVT.

Yeah.  This is what it is.  There's nothing inherently wrong with the CVT that can't be fixed, for what it's supposed to be.

 

But if you actually want to drive a car...it's still just a fundamentally hateful item to use as a transmission.  It's diametrically opposed to the idea of a "fun" transmission, and physically cannot function in that manner.

 

 

Doesn't really matter if 95% of people can't tell the difference.  It's just fundamentally not good.  If 95% people buy whatever is "cheap" and "available"...It doesn't indicate anything about quality or capability.  It's a statement on what is offered.  Not what is possible.

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13 hours ago, diehardlionfan said:

It’s hard to make a case that a drive in rush hour traffic, grocery shopping, or taking the kids to school allows a driving experience.

I understand what you’re saying but it’s been my experience that driving, for most people is purpose not experience driven. For most people the type of driving they’re tasked with isn’t conducive to an experience.

Ive always loved driving but constantly shifting in traffic isn’t my idea of a good time.

It absolutely can incorporate "The Driving Experience".  Because that's literally what you're doing.

It often sucks, because traffic makes it unwieldy, but if you're not looking for opportunities to find fun in a drive...you're not driving a fun car.  Period.

 

There's a point at which you just need to lean in and accept that a monorail would be a far better solution to everything in your commuting woes tho.  And there's no shame in that.  Honestly.  That's my ideal commute.

 

 

5 hours ago, MrDrew said:

Dual-Clutch. Best of both worlds. Shift for real when you want, auto when you don’t.

And I get that the CVT is cheap to make, gives higher profit margins, and most people just don’t care. Same thing as the CUV. Just sucks that it makes it harder to get fun cars for those of us that like to take the backroad every now and then. 

I still don't subscribe to this DCT idea though.  I still see them as the worst of both worlds.  They're kinda fun for a second, but then it's like...what am i even doing here?  They're technically the very best thing possible for performance purposes...but for real life, they're just...not as good.  They're less smooth and efficient than conventional modern automatics...and they're far less engaging than an actual manual.

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7 hours ago, Tugboat said:

I still don't subscribe to this DCT idea though.  I still see them as the worst of both worlds.  They're kinda fun for a second, but then it's like...what am i even doing here?  They're technically the very best thing possible for performance purposes...but for real life, they're just...not as good.  They're less smooth and efficient than conventional modern automatics...and they're far less engaging than an actual manual.

It depends on the DCT for the efficiency. Most are going to be better than the traditional auto because they don't take engine power to shift. They're basically a manual with an electric shifter, and a clutch for both odd/even gears. Where an auto would be 3-4 MPPG worse than a manual, a DTC is 1-2.

So to me a DCT is the best of both. I get to shift when I want, and it's full control, unlike a traditional auto with paddles. When I just want to chill, I can throw it in auto. I more engaged than with a clutch because I'm shifting later into the turns, keeping RPMs higher, and I can drop 2 gears to pass faster than most people can get a clutch down. Basically I try to utilize the best things about a DCT when I'm in manual mode. For you, it's probably better to say that it's the best compromise.

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8 hours ago, Tugboat said:

It absolutely can incorporate "The Driving Experience".  Because that's literally what you're doing.

It often sucks, because traffic makes it unwieldy, but if you're not looking for opportunities to find fun in a drive...you're not driving a fun car.  Period.

 

There's a point at which you just need to lean in and accept that a monorail would be a far better solution to everything in your commuting woes tho.  And there's no shame in that.  Honestly.  That's my ideal commute.

 

 

I still don't subscribe to this DCT idea though.  I still see them as the worst of both worlds.  They're kinda fun for a second, but then it's like...what am i even doing here?  They're technically the very best thing possible for performance purposes...but for real life, they're just...not as good.  They're less smooth and efficient than conventional modern automatics...and they're far less engaging than an actual manual.

I guess it depends what you’ve experienced. I drive what I consider to be fun cars but the opportunity to enjoy them is limited. I don’t find commuting to be a driving experience. Thankfully I don’t have to undertake commuting anymore. 
 

A driving experience to me is the Poconos, Blue Ridge mountains, Rogers Pass, Fraser Canyon, El Camino Real in California.the sea to sky before congestion, Grants Pass etc. Keeping the rpm up and cornering hard in city traffic etc. may be a driving experience but it doesn’t qualify a a good experience.

Yes, a monorail would be great. The only place I’ve been that I’ve ridden one is Las Vegas. Perhaps part of Vancouver’s system is monorail in Surrey but I don’t recall. We left the lower mainland in 2001. Rapid transit be it light rail, monorail is a great idea. One that most of our larger cities have embraced.

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20211029-123908.jpg

 

Black one to the left is the Ram I traded in. White Gladiator is my new truck. The box in the back is the suspension parts they took off when they installed the lift. Its sitting ~3.5 inches higher than factory, so the tires look tiny. When I get back to Austin I will start the custom build and post a lot of pictures. 

 

Still in Tennessee, waiting on them to finish up the alignment, which had to be done because of the lift. 

 

For those keeping track at home, they gave me $2600 over the price I bought the Ram for last month

 

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4 hours ago, MrDrew said:

Was the Gladiator under sticker?

Yup. $6 grand under sticker with 0 incentives from Jeep (they were all taken away a few weeks ago, along with all affiliated discounts). Sticker is a hair under $46k, Invoice was like $44k and my purchase price was a just under $40k. 

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On 10/27/2021 at 12:24 PM, MrDrew said:

It depends on the DCT for the efficiency. Most are going to be better than the traditional auto because they don't take engine power to shift. They're basically a manual with an electric shifter, and a clutch for both odd/even gears. Where an auto would be 3-4 MPPG worse than a manual, a DTC is 1-2.

So to me a DCT is the best of both. I get to shift when I want, and it's full control, unlike a traditional auto with paddles. When I just want to chill, I can throw it in auto. I more engaged than with a clutch because I'm shifting later into the turns, keeping RPMs higher, and I can drop 2 gears to pass faster than most people can get a clutch down. Basically I try to utilize the best things about a DCT when I'm in manual mode. For you, it's probably better to say that it's the best compromise.

I mean...i'm struggling to think of an application where the Automatic isn't actually more efficient than the Manual today.  Mostly due to the proliferation of 8-10 speed automatics, which more than make up for inherent "losses", with raw gearing efficiencies.  Especially since the "slushbox" era of drivetrain losses from automatics is largely gone.

The sun has pretty much set on the age of the manual being superior in economy, efficiency, or performance.

 

The last frontier is the physical connection and engagement.  And it's the one realm, where an automatic (and a DCT) simply cannot ever really fully replace an awful old-fashioned manual.  When you've really connected to a drive...you can feel the torque of the engine through the clutch pedal.  You can feel the driveline spinning through the shift lever.  It's all just...in some way shape or form, mechanically connected at your fingers/toes.  You're plugged directly into the feeling of that experience.  "One with the machine" or whatever.  As a complete, holistic experience of "driving".

 

Whereas a DCT may operate similarly to a "manual" in some ways, and have a lot of superior characteristics to Automatics in functionality from a performance standpoint...the physical interface is still just "pulling some videogame paddles".  There is literally zero physical mechanical feedback and interaction through that shift paddle.  It's a clickerbox switch.  On/Off.  That's it.  Like turning the wipers on/off.

 

It's an undeniably "better" way to make a car "faster".  It's far quicker than any human is ever going to be.  It's far more precise.  It's far more reliably accurate.  But it still removes the one critical mechanical element that takes the "human" out of the interaction.  And for me...the more you take the "human" out of the interaction, the more pointless the whole experience becomes.

 

It's where i don't want to take a back seat to the computers.  If i'm going to that, just put me in something where i can take a nap and arrive at where i'm going.  If i'm not connected to the drive, i'd rather just sleep or play around on the internet.  Pulling levers isn't enough to keep me invested.

 

 

 

Efficiency between different transmission types in a car, is pissing in the wind, vs a monorail.

 

 

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