Broncos v Chargers - 3:25 pm ATX Time

[broncosfan07]

Didn't really see much of the game, but there's just no way Trevor should be starting another game here. The OL is pretty mediocre but it is a far cry better than Seattle's.

 

The problem is Trevor, it has always been Trevor, it always will be Trevor. Good kid, would be a great backup but he is so limited as a starting QB that we may as well not even bother having two top 20 receivers on the team.

[Cutler06]

Anyone else notice that Siemen has had at least ONE turnover in EVERY game so far ??

[thebestever6]

I want Paxton lynch to be in Vance Joseph's ear all week saying you wanna win put Paxton in let me spin. Like Boobie miles in fnl.  You can't call Trevor a captain after that performance.

[paul-mac]

Hopefully Paxton is healthy. Don’t really want Osweiler to start. 

[Broncofan]

12 hours ago, broncos67 said:

Denver's OL is absolutely as bad as it's made out to be. By a few measures, it's 25th out of 32. That's not better than 90% of OLs. We have a terrible OL overall, with weaknesses or inexperience at 3/5 positions. No bueno.

 

12 hours ago, germ-x said:

A lot of that falls on the QB tho, which PFF stats fail to measure.  Siemian does absolutely nothing to keep a defense honest, makes it easy as a defender and coordinator.

 

 

11 hours ago, Joe_is_the_best said:

I think it's a mix of bad blocking, a jittery QB, and slow-developing pass plays.

The reality is that we just aren't a very good OL, QB, or O scheme right now.   

Bolles is only a rookie, so there's room for growth, but his pass-game limitations were exaggerated with Garcia beside him full-time, instead of Barbre.   And while Barbre is quite serviceable as a LG/RG, it's pretty clear his range is too limited to stay at RT.    It's nothing against Barbre, he's been decent at G, and his versatility really does help, but in reality he's a decent G, but not the answer at RT.  We kinda knew this already, which is why he was playing G since coming to us, but necessity put him in a bad spot today.   Having said that, both our T's got abused in pass pro, and worse, our interior blocking fared no better with Garcia.   Frankly, we should think very hard of just returning Barbre to LG, at least there we'd have a functional left side for run blocking, and Barbre's experience could really help Bolles in pass pro - Garcia/Bolles is just a bad combo, period.   

Meanwhile, Siemian's weaknesses last year were about anticipation, pushing the ball, and improving under pressure - and while he was much improved in the first 5 weeks, the same weaknesses are coming back now that he's facing consistent pressure.   

Here's the rub, though - there's no quick fix at QB here.   Osweiler takes longer to read D's, he doesn't look defenders off, and then has a longer throwing motion.   Plus, he's less mobile.   Meanwhile, Lynch was so far behind Siemian in the preseason, it made for a unanimous decision to let Siemian be the hands-down starter.   So there's no in-house solution - for 2017, it's Siemian or bust.   And for all the talk on Sloter or even Chad Kelly, let's not kid ourselves - they haven't seen regular-season level D's, and there's a world of difference.   We're seeing it now.   If the season's over, and we're eliminated, by all means, let there be games played by other in-house guys than Siemian, to give them a look if ppl think it might help plan for 2018 - but let's not kid ourselves that it's going to help our chances of winning 2017 games.   I say the above as a guy who's been firm in saying you have to give Lynch 2 full years before you can say he's not going to work out - it's just that if you still want to try and win 2017 games, as bad as Siemian has played the last 2+ games, well, the other candidates who are in house are just that much worse...so much so that Siemian was the undisputed choice.   Nothing's likely changed in the weaknesses for Oz/Lynch - imagine guys who are even slower to make read progressions, or who don't look off defenders, and at their height whose eyes can be seen by all the defenders.   People say we can't do worse - last year with HOU Oz clearly showed it actually can get worse.    It gives me no joy to say the above, but it's better to be realistic about our options (really if we want to try to win for 2017, there are none that are better).

Scheme-wise, while McCoy will get a lot of heat for the vanilla play calling, it's really hard to know what to do differently when the OL isn't protecting at all.  And let's recognize that Elway's decision to draft raw speed-only guys really has hurt us in the area we could least afford - WR depth.   Going after Carlos Henderson in Round 3 (where a more polished NC State guy like Ryan Switzer, punt returner but actually capable slot WR guy, went Rd 4 after our picks then), and then doubling up on Isiaih McKenzie, who will very promising in the return game, really offered nothing in the WR department, meant we had little to no real depth at WR, which Sanders' injury exposed.   Like I said in the offseason, I had no problem with 1, but doubling up on the same type of player (raw, needs-time return-threat-first-at-this-stage) in a desperate attempt to find the next Tyreke Hill, well, it came with a cost, and we're seeing that butcher's bill come due.   Again, Elway's a fantastic GM, but let's recognize he's far from perfect, and there are pretty clear weaknesses, and this particular one is being exposed as our flaws in roster construction are becoming very apparent.

And while our D wasn't the problem, we need to recognize that we are far from perfect on D - the only reason our weaknesses didn't get exposed further was that the LAC O didn't have to push the ball, they just played smart ball-position O once they got up 14-0.    But make no mistake, Hunter Henry abused us at will, if the Chargers needed it, he would have kept killing us at will.  Elway's decision to not address ILB in the offseason really has come back to bite us hard - Todd Davis was pure garbage in pass coverage and in space.   This isn't a surprise, but the coaches' inability to recognize this, and Elway's insistence to piecemeal ILB, well, it's baffling to say the least. 

Now, given that there are no easy fixes, what can be done?  Well, a few things are still there to consider:

1.  Ideally, look for that RT.   Jordan Mills from BUF, sure.   Tall task however, every team is looking for OL help.

2.  Barring that, consider the move Barbre back to LG, and design extra help for our RT.   Garcia isn't cutting it at LG.  

3.  Find ILB help for a coverage guy, and if you can't, then start thinking of a heavy front  DL with Kerr/Peko/Wolfe, and think about an extra S instead of Davis early on.   

4.  Until Sanders is back, start using formations with Booker & CJ/JC on the field, each chip blocking and outletting to either side, so there are 2 possible safety outlets on either side of the field.   You see ATL use this with their 2 RB's who can catch the ball, more with Kyle Shanahan (a major criticism that their new OC deserves is not using their RB's more like Kyle Shanahan used to last year).   Until Sanders is back, we need to use our best pass catching mismatches - and after DT, it's actually our RB's (Derby isn't a focal point yet).  

The reality, though, is that all of the above issues are patchwork fixes.   We need better talent, and the reaches Elway's gone after on Day 2 that haven't panned out (after a promising start, Gotsis is back to being more of JAG than anything else) have come home to roost.   Barring an infusion of OL and ILB talent, we are going to be a flawed team for 2017.   It was our thought headed in the offseason, and it's still the analysis after 7 games.   Sadly, we have no quick fixes, and we have to accept it.

It sucks, because if we had managed to get to 5-2, we could weather the storm even if we dropped the next 2 games, but a 4-5 outcome seems most likely - KC's getting their 2 missing OL starters back, and we're still going to be without Ray, and none of the returning T's really address our RT deficiency, and we don't even know if they're coming back for next week.  

I wish I could find something positive, but I think the most positive thing I can say is we're 4-3.   Find a way to split 1 of the next 2, and the WC is still in discussion.   Really, really, really tall order, though, seeing as how I think we're facing the most complete AFC team, and perhaps the most complete NFC team, the next 2 weeks.   

[1234567]

Same exact MO for Trevor as last year: start the year off great -> defenses figure out he can't read blitzes -> throw the kitchen sink at him -> he crumbles under the pressure and is rendered ineffective for the rest of the season. This shouldn't be a surprise; but it still sucks because Lynch has looked even worse. 

 

[SpanosPayYourRent]

11 hours ago, broncos67 said:

Denver's OL is absolutely as bad as it's made out to be. By a few measures, it's 25th out of 32. That's not better than 90% of OLs. We have a terrible OL overall, with weaknesses or inexperience at 3/5 positions. No bueno.

Why TF do you think we got rid of him

[broncos67]

I was firmly on team Trevor to start the season, but it's evident we're going nowhere with him and it's time to cut bait. He's only one of the many problems on this team, but he's shook and it's plain as day. He's now imagining pressure that isn't there, holding the ball way too long waiting for DT to get open, and we're relying on him to pass his way out of trouble because the box is stacked.

Elway needs to shoulder nearly all of the blame for this season, IMO. Now, I don't know if goofy Vance and McCoy are the right coaches, but if we're being completely fair, this season isn't a good representation of what they can or can't do. We have a ton of injuries, and the talent our GM has brought in is hot garbage. The defense is still playing at an extremely high level, but my god, Elway has been just terrible building an offense that didn't include Peyton Manning.

He's now gone 0-2 in identifying QBs, and both he has brought in have been tall, athletic types with big arms but little between the ears. Not a recipe for success in today's NFL. What's worse, we have spent premium draft picks on both. Bolles will be serviceable long-term, IMO. He'll likely never be an elite OT, but at least he'll be passable. The rest of the line sans Leary is a mess. Paradis looks worse. Garcia is an absolute dumpster fire. We have a set of turnstiles at RT. That's on Elway for the failure to draft/develop/sign any identifiable talent over a long period of time.

This years draft is following the pattern of other drafts. Bolles plays, but isn't great. Where is Demarcus Walker? Carlos Henderson got hurt. Jake Butt was hurt. We drafted a developmental CB from Lamar instead of a number of prospects who are contributing across the league. Sure would be nice to have Tarik Cohen on this team instead. Oh, and let's not forget the doubling up on players in an effort to find our version of Tyreek Hill. Elway is just trying to emulate success instead of having the forethought to amass talent and build a cohesive team. His strategy isn't going to work.

[jsthomp2007]

12 hours ago, broncosfan07 said:

Didn't really see much of the game, but there's just no way Trevor should be starting another game here. The OL is pretty mediocre but it is a far cry better than Seattle's.

 

The problem is Trevor, it has always been Trevor, it always will be Trevor. Good kid, would be a great backup but he is so limited as a starting QB that we may as well not even bother having two top 20 receivers on the team.

I will jump off the Siemien train.  He would make a fantastic, long-term solution, as a back-up QB.  He can get you 2-3 wins a year if starting QB goes down, and he is cerebral enough to help prepare the starter.  He would be so very fantastic in that role...and sure as heck beats doing commercial real estate...I would personally know...and I would rather hold a clip board in an NFL game.  

I feel bad, because I like the kid a lot.  I hope he can realize this about himself and follow the Kubiak path...Kukiak realized his limitations early and was one of the best backups in the league who wound up being a great coordinator and an above average HC...could totally see Trevor going down this path and there is nothing wrong with that.

But, we got to be real, our need for a starting QB is that...a NEED going into the next off season.  Alas, I trust Elway to find that QB...I think he will have to make a blockbuster move to get a marquee guy.  Granted there isn't a Peyton Manning out there to get, but I am sure something will spark his interest....maybe a Drew Brees who seems to still play really good ball.  

 

[Broncofan]

4 hours ago, broncos67 said:

I was firmly on team Trevor to start the season, but it's evident we're going nowhere with him and it's time to cut bait. He's only one of the many problems on this team, but he's shook and it's plain as day. He's now imagining pressure that isn't there, holding the ball way too long waiting for DT to get open, and we're relying on him to pass his way out of trouble because the box is stacked.

Elway needs to shoulder nearly all of the blame for this season, IMO. Now, I don't know if goofy Vance and McCoy are the right coaches, but if we're being completely fair, this season isn't a good representation of what they can or can't do. We have a ton of injuries, and the talent our GM has brought in is hot garbage. The defense is still playing at an extremely high level, but my god, Elway has been just terrible building an offense that didn't include Peyton Manning.

He's now gone 0-2 in identifying QBs, and both he has brought in have been tall, athletic types with big arms but little between the ears. Not a recipe for success in today's NFL. What's worse, we have spent premium draft picks on both. Bolles will be serviceable long-term, IMO. He'll likely never be an elite OT, but at least he'll be passable. The rest of the line sans Leary is a mess. Paradis looks worse. Garcia is an absolute dumpster fire. We have a set of turnstiles at RT. That's on Elway for the failure to draft/develop/sign any identifiable talent over a long period of time.

This years draft is following the pattern of other drafts. Bolles plays, but isn't great. Where is Demarcus Walker? Carlos Henderson got hurt. Jake Butt was hurt. We drafted a developmental CB from Lamar instead of a number of prospects who are contributing across the league. Sure would be nice to have Tarik Cohen on this team instead. Oh, and let's not forget the doubling up on players in an effort to find our version of Tyreek Hill. Elway is just trying to emulate success instead of having the forethought to amass talent and build a cohesive team. His strategy isn't going to work.

Just to be clear, before people start to give Elway a pass on Carlos Henderson - his injury was not a season-ending variety, he could have clearly been back with IR-return.   But we chose to use the extra roster spot by putting him on IR before cutting to 53 players - so in essence we decided to give him a full redshirt year.  That was because Carlos wasn't even close to ready to play as a WR, as digesting a NFL playbook and his route-running were sushi-level raw in OTA's and TC - which was exactly the scouting report coming from a playground O and looking at the tape.   Again, I didn't have a problem with the pick at the right value, but as is Elway's MO, he went at least 1-2 rounds earlier than expected, and then Elway decided to double up on the Tyreke-Hill toolkit with McKenzie Rd 5.   Didn't have a problem with making 1 of the those picks, but going that way with 2 guys (and then taking another developmental CB pick with the ST angle in Langley), well, that's  a waste of draft capital that was referenced at the time - and deserves mention again.   It's way too soon to evaluate the 2017 draft for the individual outcomes, but the fact we chose to redshirt Carlos Henderson (and he can't practice at all with the team on full IR either, which only delays his learning curve even more), and the doubling/tripling up on guys to try and make an immediate impact, well, the lack of one clearly creates some accountability that's deserved now (but, the final verdict still is a ways away, but the early returns are really concerning, to say the least).

Elway's a fantastic GM overall, and his Day 3/UFA success is one that we should recognize.  But the holes in our roster are exactly because of his draft weaknesses aren't changing.   The biggest change we can make for the better is to put a real scouting director in charge of the draft, and to act as a true devil's advocate, and yield more decision-making power - to save Elway from himself Day 2 (and I'd argue stop going need in Rd1 vs. overall talent, it's the one-player-away philosophy that doesn't work when your roster is no longer one-player-away).  This is also where Elway's greatest strength (his fearlessness) can be a big weakness - fearlessness comes with the willingness to risk mistakes.  That's fine - except when you don't learn from them, and keep repeating them over and over.   Elway's learned from his other mistakes, so here's hoping the roster holes and how his draft failures in Day 2 (and mostly on O) will make him re-evaluate the draft system he has in place (keep the Day 3 philosophy for Day 3, nothing wrong there, but please, for the love of God, change Rd1 to most talented player, and just scrap the Day 2 process you're using altogether).

[jsthomp2007]

Is it bad that at this point, I am kind of hoping the Broncos tank a bit this year.  The one season they went 4-12 we got Von in the draft and went to the playoffs the next season.  

[BroncosFan2010]

Ya, Trevor's play this past game was simply unacceptable. Even with our poor OL he was showing himself to simply not have what it takes to be a starting caliber QB. And I hate saying that because I really like the kid. I thought he was going to be a Hasselbeck type QB for a number of years, but he looks cooked. And while its tough to disparage a QB for being a tackling dummy because of how bad the OL is, the truly quality starting QB's find ways to make plays even with pressure. And Trevor cant do that. He has also been unable to push the ball down the field for 3 games now, which I truly don't understand because he looked fine in terms of arm strength in the first 2-3 games. He just has been poor, and likely isn't anything but a backup caliber guy moving forward.

But, I would still stick with him as the starter over Brock. I still think there is more of a glimmer of potential in Trevor than Brock, and even if not I think Trevor has a better chance of being our long term backup QB solution than Brock, so I would stick with him.

If Lynch, or even Kelly, are ready to go, then I would play them over Trevor just to see what we have. But not Brock. Stick with the guys who have a future here, and who might develop into something. That is Lynch, Kelly and Trevor, despite his recent dumpster fire play.

Overall, I agree with the resounding sentiment that Elway needs to be held accountable for his inability to build an offense. He just doesn't know how to draft on that side of the ball. And his most recent draft overall has netted us ONE player worthy of snaps and one out of control punt returner. That's it. Demarcus Walker has been a total no-show (Not to mention we are foolishly trying to turn him into an EDGE, apparently Elway wants to relive the Robert Ayers at 34LB years). Henderson has been booty and doesn't understand a route tree. We got a developmental CB when tons of more NFL ready guys were on the board. Ugh.

Also, I think its time for some De'Angelo Henderson. I understand that Booker looks good catching the ball, and maybe he can be a full time receiver, but he is still very slow hitting the hole and doesn't have any power through tackles. CJ is still our best option though, he put a respectable 4.4ypc on the board last night despite the OL being abused by SD's tremendous rush. In fact, Anderson has probably been our best offensive player this season. He always goes unnoticed for some reason.

It may be time to go young and tank, but I don't want to waste this defense. A Tebow-era type reliance on the run game may be our best bet. We have a lot of warm bodies at RB, we might as well run them into the ground.

More than anything, please people don't suggest tanking for Josh Allen. We don't need a third 'looks-like-Tarzan-plays-like-Jane' type pick at QB. The kid is terrible.

[champ11]

I CANNOT believe I have to @ Broncos fans about Brock freaking Osweiler on twitter, man. This fan base needs to get a grip. If getting Brock in there over Trevor is what is going to get you heated, you need a reality check. 

 

Anyways, a lot of great posts in here. There is a lot of nuance in regards to Trevor/OL play/O Scheme and nothing is on a singular aspect.....but yeah it's brutal in all three aspects. 

I called my buddy that I do the pod with on Friday and was just like, this game is the season. He said, naw we can lose since KC just lost. And my reply was.....if this team no-shows after the no show in prime time at home last week, call it a season. Doesn't look good, guys.

[champ11]

waiting for @AnAngryAmerican's post 

[jsthomp2007]

If the Broncos aren't going to fold this year, like I think they should take a look at doing...then, I think you should put Brock in there.  Brock has won some quality games in this league...including a win in the playoffs.