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Report: Rodgers Wants Out of Green Bay


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28 minutes ago, Les Punting said:

It was about GB's high WR2 drop% and the need for a better player in that role.

14-4 record, 48 passing TDs and 31.8 PPG tells me that's false. A "better player" in that role is nothing more than a luxury, not a need as shown by the 2020 results.

 

28 minutes ago, Les Punting said:

The 2020 offense proved there's no need to invest in WR2? Then I presume you think Gutes pursuit of S-S this offseason was a big mistake?

No, I don't presume anything. There's no need to heavily invest in WR2 as there's more than enough talent on the offense. The results speak for themselves. If you find the right deal for one? Sure, bring em in. Never going to say no to more talent but I'm not losing something of bigger value to address the position.

Bringing in JuJu, without Rodgers restructuring, costs us a viable starter elsewhere. That's not a trade-off I'm willing to make for a luxury.

Edited by beekay414
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Posted (edited)

Jones, Dillon, Hill
Adams, Lazard, Valdes-Scantling, Funchess, Rodgers, St-Brown
Tonyan, Deguara, Lewis, Sternberger

There's more than enough talent in that offensive group.

Edited by beekay414
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Just for S&Gs, lets look at the premium picks (1st and 2nd rounders) used on WRs since 2018 (Jordy's last year w/GB was 2017)

2018
First Round (Our Pick: Jaire Alexander)

WRs selected after our pick but before our 2nd rounder
DJ Moore, Calvin Ridley, Courtland Sutton, Dante Pettis

So with this pick, it's either the WRs or Jaire. Think we all know where we'd lean. 

Second Round (Our Pick: Josh Jackson)
WRs selected after our pick but before our 3rd rounder 
Christian Kirk, Anthony Miller, James Washington, DJ Chark, Michael Gallup

This is where we missed. Won't argue that. Gallup and Chark would be really solid to have. Still, Chark went 16 picks after our pick and Gallup went 81 overall. Dallas passed over Gallup after our pick so even the team that took him wasn't taking him at/near our pick. So, the issue is who we took, not who we passed on IMO.

2019
First Round (Our Picks: Rashan Gary & Darnell Savage)

WRs selected after our picks but before our 2nd rounder
Marquise Brown, N'Keal Harry, Deebo Samuel

Yeah, nothing much to say here.

Second Round (Our Pick: Elgton Jenkins)
WRs selected after our pick but before our 3rd rounder
AJ Brown, Mecole Hardman, JJ Arcega-Whiteside, Parris Campbell, Andy Isabella, DK Metcalf, Diontae Johnson, Jalen Hurd

Brown and Metcalf would've been awesome additions, for sure, but are any of us bitching about Elgton Jenkins? Kid can literally play all 5 spots on the OL. That's an incredible luxury to have. In no way is that a miss of a pick. The miss was taking Sternberger over McLaurin in the 3rd. That's the real miss.

2020
First Round (Our Pick: Jordan Love)

WRs that went after our pick but before our 2nd
Tee Higgins, Michael Pittman, Laviska Shenault, KJ Hamler, Chase Claypool, Van Jefferson, Denzel Mims

Yeah, a few decent names there. You know how many of them I'm taking over Jordan Love? Yeah, I don't even have to tell you but I'll give ya a hint...it rhymes with hero. I was the Jordan Love stan before he was even on our radar so not a soul here is changing my mind on this one. Potential franchise QB >>> WR2 all day every day.

Second Round (Our Pick: AJ Dillon)
WRs that went after our pick but before our 3rd
Lynn Bowden, Bryan Edwards, Devin Duvernay

Yeah, we missed out on nothing here.

So the argument comes down to this...do you trade the all-pro do everything OL for the luxury of having an elite WR2? I wouldn't fight you on wanting Brown or Metcalf over Jenkins. Nobody would. The reality of it is that the pick was a hit regardless of who we took. Had we taken McLaurin over Sternberger, I don't think we'd even be having this conversation. 

The issue comes down to the 2019 2nd/3rd round, not the Jordan Love pick IMO. Had we landed one of Brown/Metcalf/McLaurin via pick or trade up, not a soul on earth is fighting the Love pick in 2020.

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7 hours ago, beekay414 said:

Just for S&Gs, lets look at the premium picks (1st and 2nd rounders) used on WRs since 2018 (Jordy's last year w/GB was 2017)

2018
First Round (Our Pick: Jaire Alexander)

WRs selected after our pick but before our 2nd rounder
DJ Moore, Calvin Ridley, Courtland Sutton, Dante Pettis

So with this pick, it's either the WRs or Jaire. Think we all know where we'd lean. 

Second Round (Our Pick: Josh Jackson)
WRs selected after our pick but before our 3rd rounder 
Christian Kirk, Anthony Miller, James Washington, DJ Chark, Michael Gallup

This is where we missed. Won't argue that. Gallup and Chark would be really solid to have. Still, Chark went 16 picks after our pick and Gallup went 81 overall. Dallas passed over Gallup after our pick so even the team that took him wasn't taking him at/near our pick. So, the issue is who we took, not who we passed on IMO.

2019
First Round (Our Picks: Rashan Gary & Darnell Savage)

WRs selected after our picks but before our 2nd rounder
Marquise Brown, N'Keal Harry, Deebo Samuel

Yeah, nothing much to say here.

Second Round (Our Pick: Elgton Jenkins)
WRs selected after our pick but before our 3rd rounder
AJ Brown, Mecole Hardman, JJ Arcega-Whiteside, Parris Campbell, Andy Isabella, DK Metcalf, Diontae Johnson, Jalen Hurd

Brown and Metcalf would've been awesome additions, for sure, but are any of us bitching about Elgton Jenkins? Kid can literally play all 5 spots on the OL. That's an incredible luxury to have. In no way is that a miss of a pick. The miss was taking Sternberger over McLaurin in the 3rd. That's the real miss.

2020
First Round (Our Pick: Jordan Love)

WRs that went after our pick but before our 2nd
Tee Higgins, Michael Pittman, Laviska Shenault, KJ Hamler, Chase Claypool, Van Jefferson, Denzel Mims

Yeah, a few decent names there. You know how many of them I'm taking over Jordan Love? Yeah, I don't even have to tell you but I'll give ya a hint...it rhymes with hero. I was the Jordan Love stan before he was even on our radar so not a soul here is changing my mind on this one. Potential franchise QB >>> WR2 all day every day.

Second Round (Our Pick: AJ Dillon)
WRs that went after our pick but before our 3rd
Lynn Bowden, Bryan Edwards, Devin Duvernay

Yeah, we missed out on nothing here.

So the argument comes down to this...do you trade the all-pro do everything OL for the luxury of having an elite WR2? I wouldn't fight you on wanting Brown or Metcalf over Jenkins. Nobody would. The reality of it is that the pick was a hit regardless of who we took. Had we taken McLaurin over Sternberger, I don't think we'd even be having this conversation. 

The issue comes down to the 2019 2nd/3rd round, not the Jordan Love pick IMO. Had we landed one of Brown/Metcalf/McLaurin via pick or trade up, not a soul on earth is fighting the Love pick in 2020.

Good breakdown. I think you could argue though:

-against the Love pick (especially giving an extra 4... should have let the board fall), I liked the pick at the time, but definitely get why people hate it.

-Dillon (if we didn't trade up for Love/had an extra 4, we could have gotten Mims, Jefferson, or Claypool). I like Dillon, but a second round pick on a RB who isn't going to start is bad process, especially when we resigned a RB to big money the next year.

-Maybe a Gary/Savage trade down for Deebo who was in play (in particular if we didn't trade up for Savage)

-Potentially Jenkins over AJ Brown- we got a keeper, but unless Jenkins goes to tackle, we still drafted an IOL in R2. Good player, questionable process.

 

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3 minutes ago, pacman5252 said:

Good breakdown. I think you could argue though:

-against the Love pick (especially giving an extra 4... should have let the board fall), I liked the pick at the time, but definitely get why people hate it.

-Dillon (if we didn't trade up for Love/had an extra 4, we could have gotten Mims, Jefferson, or Claypool). I like Dillon, but a second round pick on a RB who isn't going to start is bad process, especially when we resigned a RB to big money the next year.

-Maybe a Gary/Savage trade down for Deebo who was in play (in particular if we didn't trade up for Savage)

-Potentially Jenkins over AJ Brown- we got a keeper, but unless Jenkins goes to tackle, we still drafted an IOL in R2. Good player, questionable process.

 

This is very nitpicky with the benefit of mor hindsight. The point is they were all good players at the picks and valuable assets. 

In particular I think you undersell Dillon and Jenkins here. In 2020, Jones had 201 carries, 47 catches (248 total) and Williams 119 carries, 31 catches (150 total). Second RB when Jones status was unknown is a valuable pick. Jenkins is an elite G with potential to play any OL position in a pinch. That is rare and valuable, well worth the pick over a flashier player.

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I can't believe I read all these pages talking about a #2 WR and what he would do in this offense.

In my eyes and armchair analysis, we have two #2 Wr's on the roster for next to nothing in Lazard and MVS.

And let's not forget that Rodgers convinced the coaches to insert Lazard into the lineup and he's simply been solid since then.

And I'm pretty excited about MVS for this year and the future.  He's exactly the kind of guy you extend this year for modest money.  His potential will exceed his next contract with us.  He played really good playoff football and seemed to turn the corner at the end of last year.  Pretty excited about his future.  And I never thought I'd type that concerning him.

It is not shocking to me that MLF wanted a RB1 over a WR2 in this offense.  Dude wants to run, more importantly, he NEEDS to run for this offense to work.  Jones is superior in this offense than any #2 WR that we could have obtained.

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Beekay414's analysis is pretty spot on- the Packers have not, as late, been in a position where the Packers have had the opportunity to draft receivers who would improve the team more than other options.  You could maybe fault the Packers for not being more aggressive to snag a guy who went before them, but "they should have trade up to get a player a different team coveted" is like stacking three hypotheticals on top of each other.

A lot of the "Rodgers needs weapons" talk is motivated by how the NFL media does not want to risk their access to any players by saying anything negative about them ever.  They're not going to come out and say how bad N'Keal Harry is and how Marquise Brown is basically either "scores a touchdown" or "you be better off without him on the field, just play with 10" .

Historically teams whiff  a lot when taking WRs high.  If a team isn't confident in a guy at that position, they probably should not draft him.  It's entirely likely the Packers FO had conviction on Terrance Murphy, Greg Jennings, James Jones, Jordy Nelson, and Randall Cobb that they lacked in Tee Higgins or Devin Duvernay.

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The true #2 receiver on this team in terms of targets could very well be Aaron Jones.  People are continuing to forget that MLF isn't trying to go 11 personnel all the time.

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1 hour ago, vegas492 said:

I can't believe I read all these pages talking about a #2 WR and what he would do in this offense.

In my eyes and armchair analysis, we have two #2 Wr's on the roster for next to nothing in Lazard and MVS.

And let's not forget that Rodgers convinced the coaches to insert Lazard into the lineup and he's simply been solid since then.

And I'm pretty excited about MVS for this year and the future.  He's exactly the kind of guy you extend this year for modest money.  His potential will exceed his next contract with us.  He played really good playoff football and seemed to turn the corner at the end of last year.  Pretty excited about his future.  And I never thought I'd type that concerning him.

It is not shocking to me that MLF wanted a RB1 over a WR2 in this offense.  Dude wants to run, more importantly, he NEEDS to run for this offense to work.  Jones is superior in this offense than any #2 WR that we could have obtained.

Agreed.  Lazard could become a really good player.  I definitely wasn't sold on that in 2019.  MVS still has plenty of potential too.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, skibrett15 said:

bad teams and run-first teams again, overburdened as a #1 option.

Sanders is just an exceptional route runner with pristine hands who is a little old.  Lazard is just a product of the MLF offense and Aaron Rodgers.

Completely agree.  Lazard is by no means a bad player to have on the roster but he's not a quality #2 option IMO.  

Geronimo Allison was a 4 catch, 60 yard, .4 TD per game WR in 2018 before he got injured.  The Same Geronimo Allison who the NFL viewed as a 1 year veteran minimum caliber of player the second Aaron Rodgers wasn't throwing the football to him.  Some of the people downplaying the need of WR are the same fans who used Allison as an excuse to why we didn't need WR help back in 2017, 2018 & 2019.

I'm not sure that Lazard has consistently shown that he's any better of a player than Allison outside of probably blocking.  

Because we've neglected the WR position over the last 3-4 years our backs are a little against the wall.  Adams is our only quality starting WR and his contract is up.  Making it worse, he's almost 30 and next in line for market setting contract.  The only Packer WR I can name that got more than 2 long term contract extensions was Driver and he was always super affordable.  We're almost forced to write a blank check given the lack of quality depth we've got at WR.  

 

Edited by SSG
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Lazard is just a product of the MLF offense and Aaron Rodgers. "

And if Lazard was in Tampa he'd be a product of Brady.  In KC he'd be a product of Mahomes.  In Buffalo a product of Allen.  In Seattle a product of Wilson.  

The Packers will be talking to Adams about a new contract, but they won't overpay.  WR's are dime a dozen more so than any position on the team.  You can always draft them, you can always find good ones in FA if needed.  That being said the Packers have always had plenty of talent at WR.  What's far more important is talent in the O-Line.  They've been real good there long term, and right now one of the best.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Les Punting said:

Ask Gute, he's the one that tried to trade for him and sign him to a long-term deal.

Fuller had an 86.6 pff grade last year. That's way better than "good". For comparison: Thielen (87.4), Diggs (89.4) and JJefferson (90.4). Fuller had as many TD's as Diggs in less than half the targets. He's in a different league than anyone GB has outside of Adams. Availability is literally his only ding. He'd have been a perfect #2 in GB. 

Agree, he would have been a good addition.  Imagine having a guy who can go deep and can catch.   I do think Amari Rodgers is going to be a weapon in this offense.  slot guy who can get be a gnat around the linebackers.  Im looking forward to it.  Make no mistake though, Fuller would have been a huge upgrade in this offense.      

Edited by NFLGURU
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10 hours ago, beekay414 said:

14-4 record, 48 passing TDs and 31.8 PPG tells me that's false. A "better player" in that role is nothing more than a luxury, not a need as shown by the 2020 results.

 

No, I don't presume anything. There's no need to heavily invest in WR2 as there's more than enough talent on the offense. The results speak for themselves. If you find the right deal for one? Sure, bring em in. Never going to say no to more talent but I'm not losing something of bigger value to address the position.

Bringing in JuJu, without Rodgers restructuring, costs us a viable starter elsewhere. That's not a trade-off I'm willing to make for a luxury.

 You're assuming that a better WR2 would be incapable of elevating offensive efficiency. Why? 31.8ppg is not a hard ceiling. Routing weaker defenses doesn't mean anything when you average 20ppg vs. a top defense like TB. GB didn't look like an elite offense vs. that elite defense. 

You call it a luxury, I call it trying to maximize the offensive potential. Whose to say another high-quality WR wouldn't be the piece that turns a very good offense into an unstoppable one? Gute seems to think there's unrealized upside in such a move, he' tried to add such a player every single offseason, including this one. 

S-S wouldn't have required restructuring Rodgers or anyone else. He signed a 1 year deal with a bunch of voidable years just like Kevin King. His cap hit this year is $2.4 with a $5.6 hit in '22.   

 

 

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