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Gutey or Rodgers?  

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2 hours ago, Toddfather said:

I still don't think money is a part of this. This is about respect and hurt feelings. Its all so fresh right now. This story isn't going away.

You are correct that this situation has nothing to do about money and more about respect.  But respect in this league is usually shown by the money, and Rodgers is conflicted between his insecurity/ego (his need to be communicated with at all times), and a contract that reflects his status.  A difficult conundrum for the GB org to manage.

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15 minutes ago, Sasquatch said:

You are correct that this situation has nothing to do about money and more about respect.  But respect in this league is usually shown by the money, and Rodgers is conflicted between his insecurity/ego (his need to be communicated with at all times), and a contract that reflects his status.  A difficult conundrum for the GB org to manage.

I think it has more to do with respect and acknowledgement. The man has an ego. I mean, he's an NFL QB and one of the best to do it. I think he's towards the end, and the way it has gone the last, how many years has soured him greatly. This slight is even bigger than that draft fall... The box of recruiting letter rejections doesn't even touch this. IMO he has seen how some legends have been treated... How their input mattered... Whether wrong or right we sit in an interesting position because we do not have an owner. I think he has been discouraged, and honestly, disrespected over a lot of moves, situations, and an over all lack of communication. He is a HOF QB, and IMO he feels like he is the assistant to the assistant regional manager (😊). The man is over it. Its clear as day the silos still exists in Green Bay because 1.) The only thing Murph-man focused on was the franchise and B.) no one read the damn room and realized in this business you have to deal with egos... Some will call it "divas" but no it's egos. You have to be wired a certain way for a man like Rodge to get where he is. If you sit there and feel like you can treat him, and I do not think it was intentional. I think Gute is very much learning what this role is. He is no longer a scout. I also think the Packers are being taught a lesson that a franchise with an owner learned a loooong time ago.. but if you think you can approach a almost 38 HOF QB the same way you approached him when he was 28... The man isn't stupid... So many stupid *** mistakes were made. THAT is what the issue is. How and why it got this far, especially after the MM departure. 1265 Lombardi Ave needs to learn how to read a damn room... 

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6 hours ago, TransientTexan said:

Not to mention, why didn’t a team like Cleveland or Jacksonville or New York (Jets), or other teams that had tons of unused cap space in recent years, just buy themselves a good QB by offering $50-60m, and by your logic, instantly change their fortunes? There were no rules preventing them from doing so. That would have easily beat out the $30-40m salaries of good QB’s. 
 

if your answer is that there just weren’t any of that caliber QB on the market and that these teams consequently never got that opportunity, then ask yourself why that is. There is no rule forcing good QB’s to sign extensions with their current teams 1-2yr before their current deal ends. They could hold out til free agency & then reach the bidding-war phase and reap the $50-60m that these other teams would supposedly throw at them in a bidding war (if your logic is to be believed). If we continue this thought experiment, that must mean these QB’s are making a conscious choice on the value-judgement between lesser money now vs greater money in a couple years *assuming they can avoid injury*. And/or a value judgement that they would rather stick with a proven good supporting cast (that has already helped them win games) than gamble that the team offering them $50-60m will be able to scrape together a sufficient supporting cast to keep winning. 
 

or conversely, the other scenario is that these QB’s aren’t making these types of value judgements, and instead, the simple fact is that no NFL teams value their production enough to offer them $50-60m. 


So in neither scenario is there some conspiracy to hold QB wages down. 

The Goat was just a FA, what he took like 25m and won another...

that I can respect...

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25 minutes ago, Toddfather said:

I think it has more to do with respect and acknowledgement. The man has an ego. I mean, he's an NFL QB and one of the best to do it. I think he's towards the end, and the way it has gone the last, how many years has soured him greatly. This slight is even bigger than that draft fall... The box of recruiting letter rejections doesn't even touch this. IMO he has seen how some legends have been treated... How their input mattered... Whether wrong or right we sit in an interesting position because we do not have an owner. I think he has been discouraged, and honestly, disrespected over a lot of moves, situations, and an over all lack of communication. He is a HOF QB, and IMO he feels like he is the assistant to the assistant regional manager (😊). The man is over it. Its clear as day the silos still exists in Green Bay because 1.) The only thing Murph-man focused on was the franchise and B.) no one read the damn room and realized in this business you have to deal with egos... Some will call it "divas" but no it's egos. You have to be wired a certain way for a man like Rodge to get where he is. If you sit there and feel like you can treat him, and I do not think it was intentional. I think Gute is very much learning what this role is. He is no longer a scout. I also think the Packers are being taught a lesson that a franchise with an owner learned a loooong time ago.. but if you think you can approach a almost 38 HOF QB the same way you approached him when he was 28... The man isn't stupid... So many stupid *** mistakes were made. THAT is what the issue is. How and why it got this far, especially after the MM departure. 1265 Lombardi Ave needs to learn how to read a damn room... 

Damn, I think you summarized the underlying, intrinsic, deeper-level issues driving his behavior quite nicely.  I said a few days ago that Gute needs a QB whisperer on staff.  Someone that not only can read the tea leaves, but can use this knowledge to effectively micro-manage unique situations.  Some players require more pampering than others.  To say, “we will treat every player the same because we don’t believe in special treatment” is short-sided.  The best Teachers in the land don’t teach that way, nor should football GM’s manage their personnel as such.  GB’s structure - for better and worse - doesn’t really have that owner/player bond, and here we are.

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8 minutes ago, Sasquatch said:

Damn, I think you summarized the underlying, intrinsic, deeper-level issues driving his behavior quite nicely.  I said a few days ago that Gute needs a QB whisperer on staff.  Someone that not only can read the tea leaves, but can use this knowledge to effectively micro-manage unique situations.  Some players require more pampering than others.  To say, “we will treat every player the same because we don’t believe in special treatment” is short-sided.  The best Teachers in the land don’t teach that way, nor should football GM’s manage their personnel as such.  GB’s structure - for better and worse - doesn’t really have that owner/player bond, and here we are.

Yeah man. What I once thought was media b.s. I know see a real disconnect... Wounds are fresh, and I hope in a time heals all... If not. I hope serious lessons are learned. For all powers. 

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1 hour ago, Toddfather said:

I think it has more to do with respect and acknowledgement. The man has an ego. I mean, he's an NFL QB and one of the best to do it. I think he's towards the end, and the way it has gone the last, how many years has soured him greatly. This slight is even bigger than that draft fall... The box of recruiting letter rejections doesn't even touch this. IMO he has seen how some legends have been treated... How their input mattered... Whether wrong or right we sit in an interesting position because we do not have an owner. I think he has been discouraged, and honestly, disrespected over a lot of moves, situations, and an over all lack of communication. He is a HOF QB, and IMO he feels like he is the assistant to the assistant regional manager (😊). The man is over it. Its clear as day the silos still exists in Green Bay because 1.) The only thing Murph-man focused on was the franchise and B.) no one read the damn room and realized in this business you have to deal with egos... Some will call it "divas" but no it's egos. You have to be wired a certain way for a man like Rodge to get where he is. If you sit there and feel like you can treat him, and I do not think it was intentional. I think Gute is very much learning what this role is. He is no longer a scout. I also think the Packers are being taught a lesson that a franchise with an owner learned a loooong time ago.. but if you think you can approach a almost 38 HOF QB the same way you approached him when he was 28... The man isn't stupid... So many stupid *** mistakes were made. THAT is what the issue is. How and why it got this far, especially after the MM departure. 1265 Lombardi Ave needs to learn how to read a damn room... 

So just what are these mistakes that were made?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Toddfather said:

I think it has more to do with respect and acknowledgement. The man has an ego. I mean, he's an NFL QB and one of the best to do it. I think he's towards the end, and the way it has gone the last, how many years has soured him greatly. This slight is even bigger than that draft fall... The box of recruiting letter rejections doesn't even touch this. IMO he has seen how some legends have been treated... How their input mattered... Whether wrong or right we sit in an interesting position because we do not have an owner. I think he has been discouraged, and honestly, disrespected over a lot of moves, situations, and an over all lack of communication. He is a HOF QB, and IMO he feels like he is the assistant to the assistant regional manager (😊). The man is over it. Its clear as day the silos still exists in Green Bay because 1.) The only thing Murph-man focused on was the franchise and B.) no one read the damn room and realized in this business you have to deal with egos... Some will call it "divas" but no it's egos. You have to be wired a certain way for a man like Rodge to get where he is. If you sit there and feel like you can treat him, and I do not think it was intentional. I think Gute is very much learning what this role is. He is no longer a scout. I also think the Packers are being taught a lesson that a franchise with an owner learned a loooong time ago.. but if you think you can approach a almost 38 HOF QB the same way you approached him when he was 28... The man isn't stupid... So many stupid *** mistakes were made. THAT is what the issue is. How and why it got this far, especially after the MM departure. 1265 Lombardi Ave needs to learn how to read a damn room... 

I think that is how Rodgers feels but I don’t think that’s fair to the FO’s point of view.

You say they need to learn to read the room... what if they don’t care to? You say it’s about respect and acknowledgement. What is signing him to the richest contract in the sport’s history? What was firing a coach he didn’t want around anymore?

I don’t think the FO needs to learn to read the room... I think they have an old school mindset. Players play, coaches coach and scouts/FO build the team. 

I’m sure the front office viewed this situation from the stand point of you signed the contract... you knew when the guarantees ran out, so you knew what the timeline was...you agreed to it. You don’t like it now because you have gotten super close to the Super Bowl and you had one of your best seasons and you think you have power now.

I don’t think the FO needs to learn to read the room. I think the FO was caught off guard because they thought all parties knew what the plan was given the agreement on a contract.

Edited by Green19
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11 minutes ago, Green19 said:

I think that is how Rodgers feels but I don’t think that’s fair to the FO’s point of view.

You say they need to learn to read the room... what if they don’t care to? You say it’s about respect and acknowledgement. What is signing him to the richest contract in the sport’s history? What was firing a coach he didn’t want around anymore?

I don’t think the FO needs to learn to read the room... I think they have an old school mindset. Players play, coaches coach and scouts/FO build the team. 

I’m sure the front office viewed this situation from the stand point of you signed the contract... you knew when the guarantees ran out, so you knew what the timeline was...you agreed to it. You don’t like it now because you have gotten super close to the Super Bowl and you had one of your best seasons and you think you have power now.

I don’t think the FO needs to learn to read the room. I think the FO was caught off guard because they thought all parties knew what the plan was given the agreement on a contract.

Let me take a step back... I am all about the Packers and if it really gets down to it... We part ways with 12. That being said, you don't get to these points and not explore why you are at these points. I think this is a very much bigger picture issue. I also feel a lot of people want to view it under a microscope... I don't think this is Gutey alone. I think this is TT, and even MM. 12 has watched people leave he felt he could still win with. Whether that is true or not doesn't remove your HOF QB a part of the conversation. From the obvious of Jordy to Cobb, I will make this point... I don't think I have heard him speak of a defensive player in the kindest regard other than Woodson. IMO, and its just my opinion at this time I would think he was even pissed Wood wasn't on that 2014 team. This has been building and building for a long time. If you were one of the best as what you did, and your company, management team never checked in... How would you feel? I'm not saying its on purpose, but maybe.. just maybe Green Bay being "old school" doesn't work anymore in todays' NFL. Maybe it's time in some ways to have someone who can communicate like an owner of an NFL franchise. 

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At this point, i'm team Gutey and the Packers organization.  Aaron Rodgers play was declining and they had to take Love as there was no guarantee that Rodgers was gonna ever be the MVP Rodgers again and he has an injury history.  The Packers have always been an organization first model and have never to my knowledge let players in on player or draft decisions that were made. 

I believe the real problem is that Rodgers has said he wants to retire a Packer but the Packers are not willing to give a huge extension and tie a bunch of money to him into his 40s.  Tom Brady is really the only person to show that he can still play in his 40s and he is an exception to the rule and has no injury history other than one season a long time ago. I also think he is just really upset over the lack of communication in general with the front office, which I stated before, the Packers have never been an organization to put one player ahead of everyone else.

It also seems that Rodgers wants this extension now that he had an MVP level season.  What's interesting about this is that I truly believe the Jordan Love pick actually helped him elevate his play similar to when the Patriots drafted Garapolo.

It bothers me so much how the media keeps this narrative that the Packers have not given Rodgers weapons.  Not one WR that was drafted from the Packers 1st round position last year to the 3rd round would have made any difference in the playoffs. Rodgers has had a huge cast of weapons his whole career.  The problems that the offense ran into those last few years was McCarthy's stale offense and Rodgers poor play.

Everyone is so obsessed with offense these days when year after year in the playoffs, it's the team that has pass rushers and a defense that wins the championships.  Sorry, but we cannot afford big free agents on defense due to Rodgers cap hits.  This is why we are constantly drafting defensive players in the first round, to try and get starters at a cheap rate.  We then plug holes with older veterans on a bargain in hopes they have a career resurgence.

This is why the Seattle team was so good when Russell was still on his rookie contract and they could put money on the defense side of the ball too.  Someone I know who knows some Seattle players said that Russell Wilson made a pact with some of the big defensive stars like Sherman and Thomas that none of them would take too much money so they could all stick together and win championships, and Russell went against that and once he took the money, the team fell apart as you could see.  They lost defensive players they could no longer afford and were not elite anymore.

You have to have a great quarterback to get to the playoffs year after year, but I still believe a team and great defense is what wins out most years in the Super Bowl.  The QB's get the big pay day, but come playoff time, the best teams win year in and year out.

This sounds crazy to say, but we have seen what the Packers will be with Aaron Rodgers.  They will make the playoffs and lose just like they have the past 10 years.  Rodgers had his chances so many times and not every playoff championship loss was on him, but most of them, he didn't play at his regular season level.  Yes, even when the defense was giving up points, Rodgers offense was not answering with scores.  I really hate when people put all the blame on the defense when most games, the offense was stale and would only make a small comeback in the 2nd half when it was already too late.

I'm tired of the same story every year.  I tell myself every year that this year will be different, and the story goes about the same.  Packers are a winning team year in and year out and choke in the playoffs.  It's really strange because we have seen this from all Wisconsin teams in the past 10 years. 

Wisconsin Badgers Football can never beat OSU in the Big Ten title game.  Wisconsin Badgers basketball losing to Duke in the NCAA finals. Brewers losing to the Dodgers in the MLB playoffs.  Bucks always coming up short in the playoffs.  Packers losing NFC championship games year after year.

Skip Bayless on Undisputed today said that Lil Wayne told him that the Packers are very high on Jordan Love and how he ended the season last year in practice.  Because there was no preseason games and restrictions on practices with COVID, no one got to really see his progression.  I wouldn't think Lil Wayne would make that up as he has a few friends in the organization due to his status and being a Packers fan.

Anyways, this rant is over.  I am always going to put the Packers first and I am not in one way nervous for the outcome.  I appreciate what Aaron did for the team, but at this point I am excited if he comes back, or if we get to see Jordan Love.  The whole 11-5 or 13-3 seasons only to lose in the playoffs is getting rather annoying.  It's time to change things up and see where the franchise is headed to next.  Go Pack Go!

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3 minutes ago, Toddfather said:

From allowing you HOF QB and face of a franchise to have input in conversations about player personnel? Not total control, but feel he is an important part of this franchise. I do not feel this is unreasonable. Obviously we know about Jordy, Cobb, and what is being reported Kumerow. I will take a leap, and this has no way been reported, but he has spoken very very highly of Charles Woodson. As I stated in posts before, this is not an over night issue. I don't believe its a Gutey issue, or even an all in TT issue... I think this is a boiling point of many years of this organization not really acknowledging the importance 12 has to the club... Not saying they have to kiss his ***, but they don't even reach out on who he feels will be important to the team that year? The man that is known for baiting defenses...He is a cerebral HOF qb that doesn't even get his input herd? A three time MVP... Not saying he should run the franchise, but he should be a bigger part of it outside Sunday. This is a long time in the making

Ya, I could not disagree with you more. Their are whole staffs of people working year round on the personnel side to deep dive on hundreds of players to try and make the best decisions possible, yet they should just push all that aside because Rodgers thinks he is the smartest guy in the room. If he really wants to be part of that process come to GB in the off season and get in there and rub elbows with the scouts and coaches breaking down film of players. Go to pro days and be in on interviews. Gutes has even said as much in the past couple of days that he would welcome him there. What is amazing is the number of people acting like the Packers, Gutes mostly did something wrong. It is no body job in the FO to kiss Rodgers ***, Gutes job is to just find MLF the best 90 players he can for training camp. Nothing more. 

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9 minutes ago, R T said:

Ya, I could not disagree with you more. Their are whole staffs of people working year round on the personnel side to deep dive on hundreds of players to try and make the best decisions possible, yet they should just push all that aside because Rodgers thinks he is the smartest guy in the room. If he really wants to be part of that process come to GB in the off season and get in there and rub elbows with the scouts and coaches breaking down film of players. Go to pro days and be in on interviews. Gutes has even said as much in the past couple of days that he would welcome him there. What is amazing is the number of people acting like the Packers, Gutes mostly did something wrong. It is no body job in the FO to kiss Rodgers ***, Gutes job is to just find MLF the best 90 players he can for training camp. Nothing more. 

lol and that's fine. I don't think any of this has to do with Rodge being the "smartest man in the room". I just think like we have seen many times in history, your HOF established QB is at least "IN" the room. This team is not run by an owner. He has been here a long time, and I think was looking to be brought in at a bigger role. However I feel the Packers do not run that way. I feel like I have said many times there is a lot of bad communication. No right or wrong, but I do see the difference of how a player of 12's caliber is handled in our type of franchise vs owner led ones can create a big part of this. The man is a super bowl winning three time MVP  QB and you think he should have to knock on the door of Gutey, TT, or MMs offices? That's the disconnect. It's not black or white. Its not he is demanding what is done. It is he is part of the conversation. Input is acknowledged. That has not been the case here. Hence, the boiling point.

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We have very differing opinions here. I think if Rodgers would of focused more on being the best QB he could be rather than who the 5th WR should be on the roster, maybe he wouldn't of wasted several years of his career. The fact that from 2017-2019 he coasted along content hovering around a top 10 QB in the league, compared to 2020 when Love is drafted and he found motivation again to be great. Why wasn't putting in the effort in other off seasons? Why did it take drafting Love to motivate him? James Jones after the draft even called the MVP would happen because Rodgers told him how driven he was. Maybe Rodgers should just try and be the best QB Rodgers can be and stop worrying about doing the job of everyone else.   

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