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Brady vs Jordan for 2nd greatest North American Athlete of all-time


NeptunePenguins

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On 5/7/2021 at 10:08 AM, Dbrog24 said:

How exactly could you consider Gretzky the GOAT of all sports? He was basically the Wilt Chamberlain of the NHL. If we are talking about the greatest winner in all of major sports (not Olympics), that's Bill Russell. 11/13 championship seasons (1 being player/coach btw). No one even comes close to that. Once you start including other factors, eh ok. It's not like I'm gonna argue someone if they have Jordan or Brady #1...there's an argument to be had for them. I'm just saying it's not clear cut and depends on criteria. I personally would put Brady ahead of Jordan and Russell above both of them, but again, that's just me.

Side Note: I absolutely LOVE/HATE athletes like Brady or Jordan. They both have those qualities that just strike terror in your heart everytime you face them because you know they are going to find a way to win, even if it's coming back from insane deficits. For me, as heartbreaking as it feels sometimes, that encapsulates the reason I love sports; rarely feel that emotion elsewhere

the fact that he has more assists than anyone else has overall points has to be a part of it lol

don't be the **** who acts like the goat of all sports debate can in any way be settled with an absolute answer. it is a great debate in that it's incredibly discursive and open to every person's unique interpretation of the time, such that there's no right answer and it's all about people putting the case forward for the guy they think it is but it's not as if any of the names that get thrown around, gretzky, brady, serena, djokovic, jordan, messi, ronaldo, russell, bradman, whoever; it's not as if any of them are numpties lol

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5 hours ago, Shady Slim said:

the fact that he has more assists than anyone else has overall points has to be a part of it lol

don't be the **** who acts like the goat of all sports debate can in any way be settled with an absolute answer. it is a great debate in that it's incredibly discursive and open to every person's unique interpretation of the time, such that there's no right answer and it's all about people putting the case forward for the guy they think it is but it's not as if any of the names that get thrown around, gretzky, brady, serena, djokovic, jordan, messi, ronaldo, russell, bradman, whoever; it's not as if any of them are numpties lol

Yeah if your criteria is purely stats vs their peers, Gretkzy has the easiest case for GOAT. What dings him is that he wasn't some overwhelming championship winning player and when he did win it was only with the Oilers and the last 12 years of his career in LA, STL and NY he had a drought. Also he's the least culturally impactful amongst some of the North American GOATS when you consider Jordan, Brady, Ali, Phelps and Serena. People who don't watch sports at all know who those people are. Gretkzy you kinda really need to be a sports fan at least in the US to know him nowadays. 

But he easily is considered the GOAT of hockey and he easily has the most overwhelming statistical and performance dominance of any player in NA sports. 

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12 hours ago, Shady Slim said:

the fact that he has more assists than anyone else has overall points has to be a part of it lol

don't be the **** who acts like the goat of all sports debate can in any way be settled with an absolute answer. it is a great debate in that it's incredibly discursive and open to every person's unique interpretation of the time, such that there's no right answer and it's all about people putting the case forward for the guy they think it is but it's not as if any of the names that get thrown around, gretzky, brady, serena, djokovic, jordan, messi, ronaldo, russell, bradman, whoever; it's not as if any of them are numpties lol

Literally what I said... Not sure where you're coming from on this

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On 5/6/2021 at 6:55 PM, ifeelasleep said:

yeah, no, not even the goat in tennis.

She has 23 grand slams,
23 Masters 1000 (where only the top top players play, second in achievement)
73 career titles. (Navratilova has 167)
Olympic golds (dominant, you could argue if they mean much, but lets take it into account)


Djokovic has 18 Grand slams
36 masters 1000, hes the only one that has won all of them and has done it twice!
83 career titles
Most weeks at number 1 ranking

If you looked at them now itd be an argument, but djokovic is winning 3-2 majors a year for now and the foreseeable future, He has a lot of years left as he is 6 years younger than serena. He is going to explode every record in the tennis book, in the toughest era against federer and nadal. and its in mens tennis the level is higher.

He´s already the best ever in tennis, and im a federer fan.

ive seen them play all their career, if you said best wta player i would agree.

Djokovic's peak will never compare to Federer's (2004-2007). Yes it will look like Djokovic may surpass some of Federer's numbers for their entire careers, but will never compare to Federer's greatness. 

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The fact that Brady only has 3 1st team all pros (2007, 2010, 2017), 3 MVP (same years), and 2 offensive player of the year awards (2007, 2010) is utterly disqualifying. He just wasn't noticeably better than any of his peers, he just was blessed to be on very good teams throughout his career. 

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It can’t be Djokovic because of the era he played. Plus he’s not North American (barely won that many US Opens, 3 to be exact).

Phelps, probably. Because of the dominance in multiple eras. But he had weak competition. A sober Lochte and some other bums that barely threatened him on the butterfly. Ledecky can’t be in the conversation until she wins a Medley and I don’t think she has plans to compete in that.

Bolt, a lot of that success was team sprints and he is only a sprinter after all.

I just can’t put Brady in there as an athlete. Most accomplished athlete? Him and Wayne, but Brady has more playoff success. In reality, it’s probably Rice and LT.

That’s why it’s Jordan and Phelps on Mount Rushmore. You can put Babe or some ancient boxer to honor that era, but modern day, I’d say Phelps and Jordan.

If you include women, Serena is a lock for perhaps greatest ever although he played in weak eras (but has been dominant for so long). Biles can’t be in the discussion because of longevity in that sport. So I’ll take the ladies out of this.

1. Phelps

2. Jordan

3. Brady

4. Gretzky

5. Lewis/Ali/Babe.... someone in that bye gone era.

 

 

Edited by WheatieMan
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On 5/4/2021 at 11:42 AM, ET80 said:

tumblr_mv041h295v1qcmnsoo1_r1_400.gifv

I disagree... but I concede I'm in the minority on that.

You are factually correct though. The team around Jordan, especially in 1995, wasn't good enough. He came back and played well in the playoffs, but the Magic were just better.

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On 5/4/2021 at 1:31 PM, Art_Vandalay said:

I'm with ya, bro. If this is a discussion that includes Tom Brady, then Tiger Woods absolutely needs to be part of it. He's absolutely the GQBOAT, but I'm hard-pressed to call him a great "athlete"

Uh, why? What makes a great athlete? Succeeding in one's sport? Dominating?

There's a difference between "greatest athlete" and "most athletic". If your definition of greatest athlete is just who has the best combine measurables, then the only 2 choices are Ashton Eaton or Kevin Mayer. No need to bring anyone else into this.

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1 hour ago, seminoles1 said:

Uh, why? What makes a great athlete? Succeeding in one's sport? Dominating?

There's a difference between "greatest athlete" and "most athletic". If your definition of greatest athlete is just who has the best combine measurables, then the only 2 choices are Ashton Eaton or Kevin Mayer. No need to bring anyone else into this.

I never said most athletic = greatest athlete. I’m just saying having athletic ability should factor into greatest athlete. Jack Nicklaus can be considered easily the best golfer of all time but why isn’t he part of this discussion? I wrote this a few pages back....:

And a sport is "an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment." So, Joey Chestnut can technically be part of this conversation. Everyone's opinion is going to be different on this one. But when thinking of GOAT athletes, I'd personally prefer to leave out old slow fat people like golfers, regardless of whether or not they're great at their respective sport. I'm going to consider Phil Mickelson a great golfer, not a great athlete.

Brady's football IQ and focus are unprecedented, which is in part why he's the GQBOAT. But IMO, he's not a great athlete. MJ on the other hand had insane physical skill and was able to combine that with the IQ and focus to carry his team to championships each year

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19 minutes ago, Art_Vandalay said:

I never said most athletic = greatest athlete. I’m just saying having athletic ability should factor into greatest athlete. Jack Nicklaus can be considered easily the best golfer of all time but why isn’t he part of this discussion? I wrote this a few pages back....:

And a sport is "an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment." So, Joey Chestnut can technically be part of this conversation. Everyone's opinion is going to be different on this one. But when thinking of GOAT athletes, I'd personally prefer to leave out old slow fat people like golfers, regardless of whether or not they're great at their respective sport. I'm going to consider Phil Mickelson a great golfer, not a great athlete.

Brady's football IQ and focus are unprecedented, which is in part why he's the GQBOAT. But IMO, he's not a great athlete. MJ on the other hand had insane physical skill and was able to combine that with the IQ and focus to carry his team to championships each year

I don't know why Nicklaus isn't part of this discussion. He used his athletic ability to arguably succeed in his sport more than anyone ever. What more do you want from a great athlete? A fast 40 time? It's irrelevant in his sport, but that doesn't exclude him from this discussion. People brought up Tiger, so why no one brought up Nicklaus is beyond me. I didn't bring either up because comparing team sport athletes vs. individual sport athletes is a fool's errand.

Being a great athlete and being athletic are different. That's not really up for discussion. Being naturally athletic in the combine measurements that you like certainly helps to become a great athlete, but as you can see from this discussion, it's not required and shouldn't somehow separate Jordan from Brady because he can jump higher. I mean would you consider Steve McNair a greater athlete than Drew Brees? He's more athletic and accomplished a lot, but he clearly didn't accomplish more playing the same position as Brees.

Like I said, if you want to consider accomplishments AND athletic ability together, then your answer is Ashton Eaton and you shouldn't consider anyone else. You've left yourself no other choice.

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3 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

The fact that Brady only has 3 1st team all pros (2007, 2010, 2017), 3 MVP (same years), and 2 offensive player of the year awards (2007, 2010) is utterly disqualifying. He just wasn't noticeably better than any of his peers, he just was blessed to be on very good teams throughout his career. 

Jordan’s competition at SG(and guard overall)was utter garbage compared to Brady’s at QB lol. In the last 20 years brady has competed with Favre Manning Rodgers Brees now Mahomes. Who is the SG equivalent of that for MJ? Clyde Drexler? Reggie Miller? It’s not close 

1st team pros are not created equal

Edited by CP3MVP
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31 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

Jordan’s competition at SG(and guard overall)was utter garbage compared to Brady’s at QB lol. In the last 20 years brady has competed with Favre Manning Rodgers Brees now Mahomes. Who is the SG equivalent of that for MJ? Clyde Drexler? Reggie Miller? It’s not close 

1st team pros are not created equal

Jordan was better than every other player at every position. There's no need to compare him to other SGs because he was better than every PG, SF, PF, and C. 

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49 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Jordan was better than every other player at every position. There's no need to compare him to other SGs because he was better than every PG, SF, PF, and C. 

He didn't win MVP every year so that's not true, according to your logic.

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