Brady vs Jordan for 2nd greatest North American Athlete of all-time

[lancerman]

31 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

You have to analyze stats in the proper context, not just read a list of numbers like a moron.

Their defense is the obvious deciding factor. Even if Bird and Magic were slightly better offense players than Jordan in the 1986-7 season (which I'm not convinced of), Jordan was such a superior defender that he easily erases any gap between them. Bird and Magic were just not that athletically gifted, they couldn't lock down opposing players at all. 

Bird wasn’t “slightly better”. He was clearly better. Like it’s not remotely close. He wasn’t even number 2 with Magic there. There is no reputable person that analyzes the game that thinks Jordan had a better year than Bird in 1986. 
 

You can think whatever you want, I just don’t care about your basketball opinion. 

[childofpudding]

49 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Yes because Bird and Magic were surrounded by HOFers, they had a much easier time of it. Obviously their %s are going to be better when they are not the only good player on the team. Jordan was the lone star surrounded by nobodies. The fact that you are intentionally leaving this out of your analysis suggests is telling. You don't know that context matters?

I mean, you aren't even mentioning defense, which is 50% of the game. Bird had his moments defensively but is pathetic compared to Jordan. Magic Johnson wasn't particularly good on D at all. 

Earlier in the thread you said that basketball allowed for one-to-one comparisons by looking at points, rebounds, assists and shooting percentage. Then two posts ago you said look at their stats. Now that I've done that and showed that Bird and Magic had better numbers than Jordan in '86 in all of those categories except for points, you backpedal.

I'm not surprised.

Oh, and Magic won MVP, with Jordan a distant second in voting. Jordan wasn't the best player in 86-87, nevermind the clearly best.

[Deadpulse]

5 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

...can we do bat flips as well?

[childofpudding]

1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said:

You have to analyze stats in the proper context, not just read a list of numbers like a moron.

But that's what you did - you literally listed Jordan's numbers from that season in a prior post to show how good he was. LMAO, holy **** you are dumb.

Edited May 11, 2021 by childofpudding

[childofpudding]

11 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Bird wasn’t “slightly better”. He was clearly better. Like it’s not remotely close. He wasn’t even number 2 with Magic there. There is no reputable person that analyzes the game that thinks Jordan had a better year than Bird in 1986. 
 

You can think whatever you want, I just don’t care about your basketball opinion. 

He's talking about 86-87, when Magic was MVP. Jordan was injured and hardly played in 85-86 when Bird dominated and won MVP.

[ET80]

17 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

...can we do bat flips as well?

Sure. I'm actually thinking of MMA flash KOs too...

[lancerman]

10 minutes ago, childofpudding said:

He's talking about 86-87, when Magic was MVP. Jordan was injured and hardly played in 85-86 when Bird dominated and won MVP.

Ahh that makes more sense. He’s still completely wrong 

[Deadpulse]

47 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Sure. I'm actually thinking of MMA flash KOs too...

[AngusMcFife]

1 hour ago, childofpudding said:

But that's what you did - you literally listed Jordan's numbers from that season in a prior post to show how good he was. LMAO, holy **** you are dumb.

Stats are a starting point but you have to account for context.

For instance, look at Brady's stats. He was never the best QB except for 2007, 2010, and maybe 2017. So why don't you apply your logic you use for Jordan as you do to Brady? It turns out you refuted yourself. 

Now you are calling me names? I bet you wouldn't do that face to face, you are clearly compensating. Take control of your own life, don't take out your frustrations on anonymous people on the internet. This argument isn't that serious. Trust me, you can turn your life around if you really try. 

[AngusMcFife]

1 hour ago, lancerman said:

Bird wasn’t “slightly better”. He was clearly better. Like it’s not remotely close. He wasn’t even number 2 with Magic there. There is no reputable person that analyzes the game that thinks Jordan had a better year than Bird in 1986.  

Except for Larry Bird himself. 

[lancerman]

9 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Except for Larry Bird himself. 

Again if you are going to use one player complimenting the other we can talk about how many players have said Brady is the GOAT including Montana who used to be considered the GOAT, Rodgers who is playing today, and pretty much most all time great QB’s. 
 

You are just constantly moving the goal posts. First it was MVP’s, then it was what one player said, then it was stats, now we are back to a player quote. 

[childofpudding]

25 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Stats are a starting point but you have to account for context.

For instance, look at Brady's stats. He was never the best QB except for 2007, 2010, and maybe 2017. So why don't you apply your logic you use for Jordan as you do to Brady? It turns out you refuted yourself. 

Now you are calling me names? I bet you wouldn't do that face to face, you are clearly compensating. Take control of your own life, don't take out your frustrations on anonymous people on the internet. This argument isn't that serious. Trust me, you can turn your life around if you really try. 

You called me a moron and I returned the favor. Now you cry about it? Hahahaha.

I am arguing using your logic. Every time I do that to be consistent, you change the goalposts and make excuses. First you want to talk about MVPs, then you don't. Then you want to talk about Jordan's contemporary saying he's the greatest, but don't want to hear about Brady's contemporaries calling him the greatest. Then you want to compare basketball players using points, assists, rebounds and shooting percentage; then you don't. You're all over the place and are making little sense.

Why don't you go have your mommy make you a PB&J sandwich with the crusts cut off and call it a day, OK?

As for Brady vs. Jordan, I already said earlier in this thread that comparing across sports is probably a bad idea.

Edited May 11, 2021 by childofpudding

[AngusMcFife]

2 hours ago, lancerman said:

Again if you are going to use one player complimenting the other we can talk about how many players have said Brady is the GOAT including Montana who used to be considered the GOAT, Rodgers who is playing today, and pretty much most all time great QB’s. 
 

You are just constantly moving the goal posts. First it was MVP’s, then it was what one player said, then it was stats, now we are back to a player quote. 

Ok, and I've been asking pro-Brady supporters to provide me evidence that he had a peak in which he was clearly dominant and unrivaled in his sport for several years, and you have nothing. With Jordan there is ample evidence that he was utterly dominant if not by 1986-7, then clearly by 1987-8 when he won MVP. You can use MVPs, traditional stats, advanced stats, championships, they all show Jordan was without peer. 

It really doesn't chance my argument much if I concede that Jordan was not undisputedly the best in 1986-7, because by 1987-8 he was. So his reign of domination was from 1987-1993. Not a big difference. 

Now show me anything remotely comparable that Brady did. He has the sustained excellence, but not the transcendent peak. I've seen the QB position played better than Brady played it. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by AngusMcFife

[AngusMcFife]

1 hour ago, childofpudding said:

You called me a moron and I returned the favor. Now you cry about it? 

I never called you a moron.

Quote

I am arguing using your logic. Every time I do that to be consistent, you change the goalposts and make excuses. First you want to talk about MVPs, then you don't. Then you want to talk about Jordan's contemporary saying he's the greatest, but don't want to hear about Brady's contemporaries calling him the greatest. Then you want to compare basketball players using points, assists, rebounds and shooting percentage; then you don't. You're all over the place and are making little sense.

Choose any measure you like. Jordan was without peer from around 1986 (but I'll go with 1987 to be less controversial) to 1993. You can use MVPs, traditional stats, advanced stats, team success (eventually). Look at his 9x all-defense awards. Jordan dominated his sport in a way that Brady never came close to doing.

To be GOAT, you have to be significantly better than your peers. I've seen QBs play better than Brady. They didn't have his insane longevity, or his luck being on so many great, well-coached teams.  

Hank Aaron wasn't better than Babe Ruth, and Brady's career is more like Aaron's. Great for a long period of time. But Aaron is not considered GOAT because being consistently excellent is not the same as being transcendently great. 

Quote

As for Brady vs. Jordan, I already said earlier in this thread that comparing across sports is probably a bad idea.

 Odd for you to make so many comments in this thread then. 

Do you actually have an argument to make, or are you just trolling? 

[lancerman]

1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said:

Ok, and I've been asking pro-Brady supporters to provide me evidence that he had a peak in which he was clearly dominant and unrivaled in his sport for several years, and you have nothing. With Jordan there is ample evidence that he was utterly dominant if not by 1986-7, then clearly by 1987-8 when he won MVP. You can use MVPs, traditional stats, advanced stats, championships, they all show Jordan was without peer. 

It really doesn't chance my argument much if I concede that Jordan was not undisputedly the best in 1986-7, because by 1987-8 he was. So his reign of domination was from 1987-1993. Not a big difference. 

Now show me anything remotely comparable that Brady did. He has the sustained excellence, but not the transcendent peak. I've seen the QB position played better than Brady played it. 

Your premise is false. You are talking about an era in the late 80’s where Magic won 3 out of 4 MVP’s and was a First Team All NBA throughout to artificially expand your “era of dominance” argument for Jordan. There’s no objective measurement that Jordan was the best player hands down at the time and it’s certainly not the consensus of people that follow the NBA either. When you’ve been challenged on it you just argument hopped and kept changing goal posts. So your credibility on it is shot along with it being on a foundation that isn’t sound whatsoever. 
 

1990-1993 is the best period where you can say Jordan had a sustained period where he was the best player. 
 

A sustained period is a stupid premise to base a GOAT argument on when football is so much more situational. Brady was the best QB in 2007, 2010, 2017 and you could clearly argue 2016 he would have been MVP if he didn’t miss 4 games. 2008-2009 were in the middle of Brady’s prime and he got injured and missed two key years during his prime era, and then in the early 03-06 years he simply just did not have an offense to compete with another elite player who had two All Pro WR’s and the most potent receiving weapons in the league. Just like Jordan was nowhere near competing with Bird or Magic until Pippen showed up. 
 

It’s an even more foolish argument when your premise relies on the two best players in the 80’s getting old and nobody at their level replacing them in the early 90’s during Jordan’s prime and that Brady played in the most stacked era for QB play with 3 other HOF guys who are top 10 all time including a top 3 in Manning. 
 

So you have a premise they you can’t objectively prove true, it’s kinda a crappy premise to say this is the key to the whole debate, and it really at best rests on one guy having the weakest era of competition in the last 40 years of the NBA and the other guy having arguably the strongest level of competition in the last 40 years of his sport. Your argument is both wrong and not very meaningful if it was true. 
 

The bigger problem is that reality contends with your argument. In their respective sports, Brady is pretty much by consensus considered the GOAT at this point. It’s not even a thing that’s danced around anymore. Most serious football analysts and players who commented on it have flat out said he’s the GOAT and the argument pretty much shut, including people who have been very resistant to Brady praise in the past. The ones that don’t are like Rob Parker and Barry McCockner like trolls who half their brand is being “the anti Brady” guy. That’s not true for Jordan in basketball. Even guys that believe Jordan is the GOAT will concede that Kareem and Lebron have real arguments of being the GOAT over Jordan. Like that’s not a controversial opinion that isn’t taken seriously. The fact is Brady has more firmly established himself as the GOAT in his sport and it’s going to take a Herculean effort for someone to overcome the distance he put between himself and everyone else.