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Brady vs Jordan for 2nd greatest North American Athlete of all-time


NeptunePenguins

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Gretzky had less MVPs from age 28 on (1) than his former teammate, Messier (2)

  • Messier won 2 more cups and Gretzky none.

LA was not as strong a team for sure but he forced the trade to be with Janet Jones in LA so you can't blame anyone else for him leaving Edmonton.

 

IF 99 stayed in Edmonton and won 3 or 4 more cups then Overall GoaT would still be on the table.

They might have still fallen apart because their owner was a crook and a mess, but we will never know.

 

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Gretzky might be more dominant than the others in their sport, but if a sport has a smaller pool of players you could say its easier so it diminishes it. The greatest in team sports would be in soccer (Messi), but since its in north america thats out.
For those saying serena williams, she lacks the consistency and titles in non grand slam events, Djokovic (the best player ever), Federer (my favorite) and Nadal (the ultimate specialist) dominated all calendar year not just the slams. Mens singles tennis is just a different level.

Jerry Rice has two HOF careers in one, Rice, Brady and Gretzky all have an argument. Phelps in the individual sports.
Its hard to make historical comparisons in one sport, doing so across multiple ones is tough
 

Edited by ifeelasleep
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28 minutes ago, ifeelasleep said:

Gretzky might be more dominant than the others in their sport, but if a sport has a smaller pool of players you could say its easier so it diminishes it. The greatest in team sports would be in soccer (Messi), but since its in north america thats out.
For those saying serena williams, she lacks the consistency and titles in non grand slam events, Djokovic (the best player ever), Federer (my favorite) and Nadal (the ultimate specialist) dominated all calendar year not just the slams. Mens singles tennis is just a different level.

Jerry Rice has two HOF careers in one, Rice, Brady and Gretzky all have an argument. Phelps in the individual sports.
Its hard to make historical comparisons in one sport, doing so across multiple ones is tough
 

nah it can't be messi he's like five feet tall which is immediately disqualifying. @mission27 to come and back me up on this one

(i think it's gretzky ftr but agree with your greater point that it's an arbitrary exercise to try and compare across sports though as i'm sure you'll agree it makes for great discussion)

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39 minutes ago, ifeelasleep said:

Gretzky might be more dominant than the others in their sport, but if a sport has a smaller pool of players you could say its easier so it diminishes it. The greatest in team sports would be in soccer (Messi)
 

Greatest in team sport is Don Bradman (cricket).

If you're a good batsman and have a 10 year career at the top of the order, you average 40+. If you're an elite batsman and kill attacks off and win matches for your team, you average 50+. The best batsman today averages 61 and he's almost impossible to get out.

Bradman averaged 99.94. Would have been 100 but England actually tried to kill him by bowling the ball at his head and it proved the only way to stop him beating you.

It would be like Messi scoring hattricks every single game and the only way to stop him is if Sergio Ramos snapped his leg in half

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1 minute ago, Hunter2_1 said:

Greatest in team sport is Don Bradman (cricket).

If you're a good batsman and have a 10 year career at the top of the order, you average 40+. If you're an elite batsman and kill attacks off and win matches for your team, you average 50+. The best batsman today averages 61 and he's almost impossible to get out.

Bradman averaged 99.94. Would have been 100 but England actually tried to kill him by bowling the ball at his head and it proved the only way to stop him beating you.

It would be like Messi scoring hattricks every single game and the only way to stop him is if Sergio Ramos snapped his leg in half

bradman is a good call but let's remember with that last part, he would have averaged 100 if he were able to make 4 or greater in his final innings and fell for nought to an innocuous spinner

his average was still insane in the series they tried bodyline

for what it's worth, for those who aren't cricket fans

the tactic that the english tried that hunter is referring to (bodyline) was ruled so dangerous they changed the rules to outlaw it as well

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Just now, Shady Slim said:

bradman is a good call but let's remember with that last part, he would have averaged 100 if he were able to make 4 or greater in his final innings and fell for nought to an innocuous spinner

his average was still insane in the series they tried bodyline

for what it's worth, for those who aren't cricket fans

the tactic that the english tried that hunter is referring to (bodyline) was ruled so dangerous they changed the rules to outlaw it as well

If you're looking at graph of all the greats in cricket, it would look a fairly stable trend, then you'd have a huge spike where they'd need extra screen for bradman, then come back down again.

As an England fan I'm sooo grateful it was before my time :D 

Anyway...ahem...back to American sportz

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i suppose the trouble with bradman is that he was an athlete in the 1930s-1950s and they always rightly or wrongly carry with them the asterisk as to what would have happened if they had modern athletic advances and the like - it's like the 1980's goaltenders argument that gretzky runs in to and to me it's an unfair argument because every player in an era plays with the same context (aside from the obvious team to team variances that every player in every era faces) and not other cricketer came close to bradman's average or gretzky's outputs

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Just now, Hunter2_1 said:

If you're looking at graph of all the greats in cricket, it would look a fairly stable trend, then you'd have a huge spike where they'd need extra screen for bradman, then come back down again.

As an England fan I'm sooo grateful it was before my time :D 

Anyway...ahem...back to American sportz

look i'm a bit of a seditionist aussie in that i absolutely despise watching steve smith bat because i find it deeply unfulfilling - marnus is even worse now that he seems to have copied all of smith's gross eccentricities it's so cringe! regardless, as you say, back to the american sports...

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With more money comes more competition and specialization, if the old athlete is comparable to the recent one i give the edge to the modern player. The older greats break barriers in skill but sometimes just watching a match its clear. 

Djokovic is on pace to smash all records (25+ grand slams easily), he owns the masters 1000s record, has a winning h2h against two goat contenders that dominated him when he was younger, does it on all surfaces.

That cricket example is such a historical outlier that you cant go wrong there, but i don't know anything about cricket. 
 

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1 hour ago, Shady Slim said:

nah it can't be messi he's like five feet tall which is immediately disqualifying. @mission27 to come and back me up on this one

(i think it's gretzky ftr but agree with your greater point that it's an arbitrary exercise to try and compare across sports though as i'm sure you'll agree it makes for great discussion)

Yeah especially when Messi played at the same time as a big CS who is equally as prolific, won more, and had hotter girlfriends 

If anything Messi is Manning and Ronaldo is Brady 

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On 5/4/2021 at 2:31 PM, Art_Vandalay said:

I'm with ya, bro. If this is a discussion that includes Tom Brady, then Tiger Woods absolutely needs to be part of it. He's absolutely the GQBOAT, but I'm hard-pressed to call him a great "athlete"

Yeah, Brady’s never been a real athlete.  
 

That’s why there’s tons of documentaries about his diet and workout regimen.  

He’s a 40+ white guy still playing in the NFL that runs a bootleg like he should be collecting social security.  
 

Ignore anybody that tries to tell you he’s an athlete in the same vein as Michael Jordan, lol.

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For me, Brady and Gretzky are relatively close.  Because in both cases they are clearly head and shoulders the GOAT in their sports, nobody else has a real argument.  Gretzky is more statistically prolific relative to his peers, Brady is great statistically but really shines with the 7 rings, etc.

MJ is a step below.  More culturally relevant than either.  But head and shoulders the GOAT?  No.

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4 hours ago, ifeelasleep said:

Gretzky might be more dominant than the others in their sport, but if a sport has a smaller pool of players you could say its easier so it diminishes it. The greatest in team sports would be in soccer (Messi), but since its in north america thats out.
For those saying serena williams, she lacks the consistency and titles in non grand slam events, Djokovic (the best player ever), Federer (my favorite) and Nadal (the ultimate specialist) dominated all calendar year not just the slams. Mens singles tennis is just a different level.

Jerry Rice has two HOF careers in one, Rice, Brady and Gretzky all have an argument. Phelps in the individual sports.
Its hard to make historical comparisons in one sport, doing so across multiple ones is tough
 

The other thing with Sarena that people don't like to really get into is that on the "athlete" part of it, there's always about 100 men's Tennis players who would decisevly beat her and it's the act same sport just different divisions, you wouldn't say the best CFL player is the best football player. Hell in America we wouldn't say the best WNBA player is the best basketball player. The only difference is Serena is the biggest American doing tennis and the men's division is dominated by non Americans. 

Phelps is also hard as well because he has a ton of accolades but it's in a sport where you can effectively win 8 gold medals over two weeks. Brady and Jordan had one championship they could win in a year.

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2 hours ago, mission27 said:

For me, Brady and Gretzky are relatively close.  Because in both cases they are clearly head and shoulders the GOAT in their sports, nobody else has a real argument.  Gretzky is more statistically prolific relative to his peers, Brady is great statistically but really shines with the 7 rings, etc.

MJ is a step below.  More culturally relevant than either.  But head and shoulders the GOAT?  No.

That's kinda where I'm at. I know we are on a football board, but I think even the most anti Brady folk on here would acknowledge that he's pretty much viewed as the consenus GOAT and everyone else being named like Montana and Manning are just holdouts from an older era. I lived in Denver for a long time and and that was Elway country and people LOVED Manning for his stint there. If you talked to people out there, the sentiment you would get was "well as much as I don't like to admit it, he's the best ever" and yes I've had that conversation at many football bars as ancedotal as it is. Likewise Gretzky is pretty much known as the hockey GOAT and the only people who dispute it are the minority of older fans who watched Howe and Orr, but even that crowd will acknowledge that Gretzky is the guy people think of. 

Jordan is kinda the opposite. People like me who grew up in the era where he dominated swear by him and think of him as a no brainer, but you go to any other era of fans and it becomes more debateable. Jordan isn't clearly ahead of Wilt, or Kareem, or Lebron as a player. In fact in Kareem's case the only thing that really hurts him is that so many people look at his height and playing style and think everything he was doing looked to easy while Jordan had the more athletic looking plays.

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