2021 Baker thread

[ReggieCamp]

Every. Single. Time. I see the word egregious.

[Empire Lies]

@LETSGOBROWNIES

I will grant you the wonders and powers of All-22 this one time you two-timing cheapskate.

Browns definitely got screwed by non-calls or phantom calls, but there were plays to be made on both sides on those final drives.

'

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The NFL finally uploaded the offensive snaps for the Chargers game this morning, but they chopped the endzone view horribly so the sideline view is the only view that can give the objective reality of how plays went.

Simply put, even Baker and the coaches would admit via their review of the final drive that he had some misreads on open and coming open targets of which some of the missed completions required the proper reading of leverage and zones that were missed.

Game Pass' new All-22 is garbage and doesn't make for ease of non-grayscaled light box paused screen shots. Of course, paused screenshots don't always tell the story, but what I'm saying you'd see so yourself that was the reality of how the play actually played out.

Baker played well. The loss is more so on the defensive collapse than Baker for sure and anyone saying otherwise doesn't know game well; however, there were clear plays to be made on that final drive that Baker missed. There's all kinds of rationalizations and explanations that can be given as to why he missed them whether that be he's a human being, he may have been worried about the Tackles, he doesn't trust Odell, he was seeking a DPI to get yardage, his left shoulder, he thought this or that, but that's not central to the fact that there were plays to be made and missed. Even if the plays were made there's no guarantee that the Browns still get a TD but that's neither here nor there.

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Final Drive - The Misses:

1.) Miss #1 - 2nd and 4 - Completion to Kareem Hunt on route out the backfield instead of to Higgins on the Deep Post Big Gainer.

Here, Higgins is breaking wide in deep post to the middle of the field with no one in sight inside and the safety 10 yards beyond where Higgins is breaking to.  The underneath slot defender is flat footed, moving forward, and looking back at the QB and Kareem Hunt there's no one else around. Hard to tell the depth perception and what direction the DB was running from this screenshot, but if you saw how the play happened on the All-22 view you'd see that the defender was moving forward and completely a nonfactor out of position looking at Baker and Kareem Hunt. 

That defender wasn't recovering and in position to disrupt the Higgins route (though one could maybe posit that from the screenshot). Relatively easy completion to various ball placements and a lot of run after catch potential even with a floater. If you look at the ALL-22, the leverage pre-snap and zone indicators would suggest that Higgins is going to have room to the inside. And that's confirmed directly after snap by the nickel's eyes and squatting on the underneath leverage. Baker just had to be patient an extra tick or recognize the coverage pre-snap. Baker and the coaches understand that the backup OTs might not hold up but it's highly doubtful imo that the coaching points or even Baker would see this not as a miss.

 

 

2.) Miss #2 - Throw on 2 and 10 to DPJ on a Vertical into Double Coverage leading to Incompletion. Misses a wide open OBJ Underneath who was running wide open for almost entirety and extended period of the route with many safe places to put the ball inside, on him, or out front with some relative run after catch potential. Of course, the rationalization is "He trusts DPJ more than OBJ" or he was looking for a DPI call down the field to get chunk yards or whatever, but I doubt any of the coaching points from Alex Van Pelt or even Baker himself would go in that direction.

 

 

3.) Miss #3 - 3rd and 10 - Misses Njoku on the out and/or OBJ coming open into a big zone on the Incompletion to Higgins on the wheel type route with Schwartz taking the boundary defender on the deep route. Importantly, at no point in Higgins route was there ever any winning leverage for Baker to place the ball. That is, the defender on Higgins was always on top of Higgins the entirety of the route; therefore, the only ball that could've possibly be completed to Higgins would have been a back shoulder toward the sidelines. Instead, Baker throws it more on a line out in front as if it would be a jump ball between Higgins in the defender but the defender was on top of the route and Higgins couldn't ever catch up to that ball. Baker was hoping for the defender on Higgins to bite on the flat route sell and for Schwartz to clear out the other defender but they didn't go for it. As a result, there was plenty of time to throw it OBJ breaking open wide toward the middle of the field or to throw the quick out to Njoku who after the clear out is one on one open toward the sideline.

 

Here's what it looks like as the play progresses

 

Again, further as the play progresses now ball in flight. The leverage throughout the duration of play and the ball thrown all pointed to the ball to Higgins being incomplete. At this point, Njoku and OBJ are decelerated and given up on the routes since the ball is in flight.

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by Empire Lies

[BrownLeader]

It's genuinely shocking that Beckham hasn't chirped about Baker at all since he's been here. I didn't think he had it in him.

Those two final drive misses to Higgins & OBJ were egregious.

@LETSGOBROWNIES make up call would've been satisfying but I hate that baseball type *** for tat refereeing. Just get it right.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 minute ago, BrownLeader said:

It's genuinely shocking that Beckham hasn't chirped about Baker at all since he's been here. I didn't think he had it in him.

Those two final drive misses to Higgins & OBJ were egregious.

@LETSGOBROWNIES make up call would've been satisfying but I hate that baseball type *** for tat refereeing. Just get it right.

Oh I agree, but if you can’t do that then even out the mistakes.

[NudeTayne]

1 hour ago, Empire Lies said:

Baker played well.

 

[Kiwibrown]

I'd like to see some deeper drops from Baker, I dont think he is a pocket passer in the sense that he will struggle to see over the line, he can gun the ball when needed too

[Bonanza23]

6 hours ago, NudeTayne said:

 

Pretty sure that’s an endorsement. Welcome to the cool kids club @Mind Character  

AKA the smart kids klub. 

[Empire Lies]

8 hours ago, BrownLeader said:

It's genuinely shocking that Beckham hasn't chirped about Baker at all since he's been here. I didn't think he had it in him.

Those two final drive misses to Higgins & OBJ were egregious.

OBJ can't shake the stigma of a young 20s superstar with some emotional and immaturity issues. Even in NYC, the vast majority of his teammates didn't consider him a bad locker room guy. 

In Cleveland, he's been great here. When he speaks he's been mature, thoughtful, and a positive influence.

That final drive and the open misses make me think that Baker was predetermining throws throughout that drive.

A lot of relatively easy pre-snap reads and route combos to be delivered to in open zones, but he's missing things with his eyes.

It's tough and worrisome b/c Stefanski really called the nearly the perfect game for him with low degree of difficulty throws and schemes that consistently got guys open.

What's tough is I can't attribute the miss reads to his left shoulder or some OBJ mystical negative mental interference. Maybe with more reps it clicks for Baker or with more study his vision and understanding of the game opens up. But it could just be a limitation.

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Empire Lies

[buno67]

18 hours ago, BrownLeader said:

It's genuinely shocking that Beckham hasn't chirped about Baker at all since he's been here. I didn't think he had it in him.

Those two final drive misses to Higgins & OBJ were egregious.

@LETSGOBROWNIES make up call would've been satisfying but I hate that baseball type *** for tat refereeing. Just get it right.

Well when OBJ drops an easy first down catch that leads to a turnover on downs, which prolly would have ended in points in that drive if he catches the ball,you can’t really run your mouth. 

[MWil23]

19 hours ago, Empire Lies said:

2.) Miss #2 - Throw on 2 and 10 to DPJ on a Vertical into Double Coverage leading to Incompletion. Misses a wide open OBJ Underneath who was running wide open for almost entirety and extended period of the route with many safe places to put the ball inside, on him, or out front with some relative run after catch potential. Of course, the rationalization is "He trusts DPJ more than OBJ" or he was looking for a DPI call down the field to get chunk yards or whatever, but I doubt any of the coaching points from Alex Van Pelt or even Baker himself would go in that direction.

 

This is my only real complaint. The one above was a progression, and you take the automatic first down to Hunt, who also has space along the sideline for a YAC opportunity.

On this route, he needs to read the safety (it’s a single read levels concept). Since the safety bails, you hit the dig. This is the same route concept that our safeties blew against Herbert for the uncovered post.

[Empire Lies]

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

This is my only real complaint. The one above was a progression, and you take the automatic first down to Hunt, who also has space along the sideline for a YAC opportunity.

On this route, he needs to read the safety (it’s a single read levels concept). Since the safety bails, you hit the dig. This is the same route concept that our safeties blew against Herbert for the uncovered post.

I think you may have quoted the wrong screenshot and play because that's the deep ball miss to DPJ in double coverage on the vertical instead of OBJ wide open underneath in the zone.

I'd disagree with your analysis that it "was a progression, and you take the automatic first down," etc

On the Higgins one below (which is the one you meant to quote and are referring to), field position, down and distance (4 downs territory) and situation (no timeouts) dictates the progression which means that getting 4 yards in 2 downs (it was 2nd down) is not the focus and a guaranteed underneath completion with some YAC potential (underneath) is not the focus or first option and this is especially b/c of the 1st down call which ate clock time and short yardage. The teaching point on the read situationally is high to low not low to high. The safety didn't so much bail as they were deep off. as well and the nickel was squatting on the underneath.

Also, in end game scenarios with no timeouts, and the need for a touchdown, chunk yards and soft zone coverage defensive rules permit those chunk yards and that's why the route combos are called on those plays.

imo, I'm rather certain that from Stefanski and Van Pelt's perspective the throw to Kareem is not the correct read in the progression. It's a clear miss based on the situational rules and dictated by the play call.

21 hours ago, Empire Lies said:

 

 

 

[MarkPrice25]

When I first saw the missed opportunity to OBJ (when he threw to DPJ instead) I fell out of my chair. That's a huge play giftwrapped for you and you completely miss it. He's got plenty of room to gain a few extra yards after the catch before running out of bounds and stopping the clock at like the 35. Fresh set of downs and more time to spare. Huge miss by Baker.

[buno67]

14 minutes ago, MarkPrice25 said:

When I first saw the missed opportunity to OBJ (when he threw to DPJ instead) I fell out of my chair. That's a huge play giftwrapped for you and you completely miss it. He's got plenty of room to gain a few extra yards after the catch before running out of bounds and stopping the clock at like the 35. Fresh set of downs and more time to spare. Huge miss by Baker.

Feel like after OBJ dropped that easy 4th down pass, he stopped looking for OBJ all that much. Seems like if you f*** up, Baker will not look for you. Schwartz was targeted a few times in that KC games  but he dropped that big pass and was barely targeted the next game. DPJ had that fumble and wasn’t target that much until last game. Might explain why after landry got hurt, he has been throwing so much to the TEs. 

[MWil23]

Here are my BIGGEST questions and/or concerns with Baker:

1. His success comes largely off of scheming guys open coming off of our run game. This definitely isn't his fault, and he's highly successful here, but a lot of this is due to Stefanski's system.

2. Can he consistently win as a pure drop back passer in "off script" situations? Whether it's a 2 minute drill, the run game isn't clicking, you need to go 3-4 wide and can't rely on heavier personnel, etc. 

3. Will he take that "next step" and be able to attack the entire field instead of mostly just the 1/2 field reads? The reason he isn't hitting the middle of the field comes down to about 2-3 things:

A. The TE seam game needs work. Flat out, Hooper has been disappointing here.

B. Jarvis, our biggest middle of the field threat, has been hurt. Someone else needs to step up, and since Schwartz bailed on that dig route, we've basically gone away from those types of routes

C. From a scheme perspective, a lot of those boot/flood concepts are Stefanski's bread and butter. I have ZERO issue with that, and it's highly successful, but more of these late game situations need to be capitalized off of when you "have to have them".

For the record, these questions and concerns, IMO, are not deal-breakers. They were the same concerns that people had with Dak a year ago, as well as many other young quarterbacks. 

Stefanski has done a brilliant job of what Freddie, Hue, and others should have done from the get go. Use flood and boot concepts to isolate 1/2 the field and read 1 defender. Then, years 2-4, you should be progressing to that "next stage" on a full field read progression.

I see some areas where Baker is processing more quickly, getting to his 3rd progression, etc., but some of the quick game, slant game, and seam game is clearly lacking.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

On 10/13/2021 at 11:33 PM, Empire Lies said:

OBJ can't shake the stigma of a young 20s superstar with some emotional and immaturity issues. Even in NYC, the vast majority of his teammates didn't consider him a bad locker room guy. 
 

Yeah, more or less.  

On 10/13/2021 at 11:33 PM, Empire Lies said:

In Cleveland, he's been great here. When he speaks he's been mature, thoughtful, and a positive influence.

His body language has been horrific at times, but that’s pretty much it.

Not the diva some portray.