2021 Baker thread

[NudeTayne]

57 minutes ago, bruceb said:

You were with at least one of them.

🍆

[NudeTayne]

1 hour ago, bruceb said:

You were with at least one of them.

[buno67]

7 hours ago, braylon said:

Without thinking too hard about it.. I literally think this is the worst group of WRs the Browns have had since I've been a fan. I was born in 93, so the earliest groups I remember had Northcutt, Andre Davis, Quincy Morgan, Kevin Johnson, etc. Those guys at least had athleticism and movement skills lol.

C’mon giving too much credit to the MoMass, Robo, Stuckey WR group. Leading WR was MoMass who didn’t have 700yards and only another player topped 220 yards. 

[braylon]

53 minutes ago, buno67 said:

C’mon giving too much credit to the MoMass, Robo, Stuckey WR group. Leading WR was MoMass who didn’t have 700yards and only another player topped 220 yards. 

Good call man.. that's an AWFUL group 😂

[buno67]

25 minutes ago, braylon said:

Good call man.. that's an AWFUL group 😂

2years worth too 

[Thomas5737]

9 hours ago, MWil23 said:

I've posted the sources and proof that Baker has the most clean pocket time for ANY QB in the NFL over the last two years, so I don't want to hear that excuse.

90% of QBs get the ball out between 2.3 and 2.5 seconds. Baker is at 2.4. Last year was 2.7 which is a high number but why lump last year into saying how terrible he is this year vs the combined pocket times of both years?

Also Baker's air yards are up this year with less pocket time. That can't be a good thing. His air yards are way up in the league. League average is probably 7 something and he is over 9. That's not a winning recipe unless you either have a great pass blocking line, great receivers or you are extending plays ala Jackson/Wilson.

Our system is pretty dumb right now. High pressure rate. Throwing downfield. Lack of athletic receivers. We need to change it up to be successful and that's all we care about. It's up to the coaches at this point.

[MWil23]

If you guys can’t see that the coaches are making these adjustments and decisions because they don’t trust Baker and need to compensate for his major shortcomings, I’m not sure what else to say. Enjoy your apologist echo chamber.

[Thomas5737]

3 hours ago, MWil23 said:

If you guys can’t see that the coaches are making these adjustments and decisions because they don’t trust Baker and need to compensate for his major shortcomings, I’m not sure what else to say. Enjoy your apologist echo chamber.

I can't see it, can you give an example?

[MWil23]

On 12/5/2021 at 7:53 PM, MWil23 said:

Fantastic video. Highest pressure to sack rate in the league despite the most clean pocket time of 2.5 seconds since Stefanski took over.

An example

On 12/5/2021 at 7:53 PM, MWil23 said:

Like I have said all year, empty formations to try to get coverage tells and mismatches since Baker can’t read it himself or eye manipulate.

An example

On 12/4/2021 at 2:29 PM, BrownLeader said:

 

Throw in the protection concepts on how many tiered levels and 2-3 WR routes that we have to buy him time to slowly process the field, not to mention how few of his attempts attack the middle 1/3 of the field (because he can't read basic 1 or 2 high safety looks), and all of those reasons.

[Thomas5737]

7 hours ago, MWil23 said:

An example

Quote

Like I have said all year, empty formations to try to get coverage tells and mismatches since Baker can’t read it himself or eye manipulate.

An example

On 12/4/2021 at 2:29 PM, BrownLeader said:

 

Expand  

Throw in the protection concepts on how many tiered levels and 2-3 WR routes that we have to buy him time to slowly process the field, not to mention how few of his attempts attack the middle 1/3 of the field (because he can't read basic 1 or 2 high safety looks), and all of those reasons.

Protection concepts? Lets see, 5 wide, a QB and 5 offensive linemen. That leaves nothing to conceive.

Tiered routes help you limit reads to one side of the field but you need protection to last long enough for your route runner to either come across the field or get 30 yards downfield before the read completely opens up. It's going to take more than 3 seconds to get 30 yards down the field if you are running 3 tiers so you better have great protection. Those are great on rollouts where you can buy time but require great pass blocking to do it from the pocket and if you are 5 wide you aren't getting great pass blocking unless they rush 3 and then they can do man cover 2 with a spy so you'll never get an advantage out of it.

I'd guess more than 80% of passes from all QBs are their initial read. Most times a QB (even Brady) just waits for that one route to open up. Obviously it's easier with his level and amount of skill players to get a great matchup and win that expected matchup but it isn't like most QB go through multiple post snap reads each play.

Maybe the coaching staff thinks they are helping but it certainly isn't. Or he is

[buno67]

22 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

90% of QBs get the ball out between 2.3 and 2.5 seconds. Baker is at 2.4. Last year was 2.7 which is a high number but why lump last year into saying how terrible he is this year vs the combined pocket times of both years?

Also Baker's air yards are up this year with less pocket time. That can't be a good thing. His air yards are way up in the league. League average is probably 7 something and he is over 9. That's not a winning recipe unless you either have a great pass blocking line, great receivers or you are extending plays ala Jackson/Wilson.

Our system is pretty dumb right now. High pressure rate. Throwing downfield. Lack of athletic receivers. We need to change it up to be successful and that's all we care about. It's up to the coaches at this point.

Worst part is our guys don’t run that well of routes either. They are not very disciplined in that department but it’s kinda par for the team, since as a whole, they are not a disciplined team

[AkronsWitness]

4 hours ago, buno67 said:

Worst part is our guys don’t run that well of routes either. They are not very disciplined in that department but it’s kinda par for the team, since as a whole, they are not a disciplined team

I would love to know whats going on with Higgins. He can at least run clean routes and be where hes supposed to be--which is why Baker has always liked throwing him the ball. Same goes for Landry.

Im not really sure what to make of anybody else in that room. They all seem like great athletes but sub par route runners.

Its also why a guy like Olave would be great for this offense. Natural athlete and is one of the best route runners in the class.

Edited December 9, 2021 by AkronsWitness

[MWil23]

14 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

Protection concepts? Lets see, 5 wide, a QB and 5 offensive linemen. That leaves nothing to conceive.

Since you cannot disguise blitzes against a 5 wide look and have to show where your Mike is, and where your pressures are coming from, it leaves us with a 5 on 4 advantage most of the time, yes.

14 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

Tiered routes help you limit reads to one side of the field but you need protection to last long enough for your route runner to either come across the field or get 30 yards downfield before the read completely opens up. It's going to take more than 3 seconds to get 30 yards down the field if you are running 3 tiers so you better have great protection.

Not necessarily. Tiered routes also can be predicated off of play-action, boot concepts, flood concepts, rub routes, etc.

14 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

Those are great on rollouts where you can buy time but require great pass blocking to do it from the pocket and if you are 5 wide you aren't getting great pass blocking unless they rush 3 and then they can do man cover 2 with a spy so you'll never get an advantage out of it.

You don't run tiered routes out of 5 wide. You do it to eliminate the possibility of most blitzes, gain advantageous personnel matchups with a bunch of LB's on the field vs. our "athletic" RB/TE (in theory), and you allow Mayfield to recognize coverage or at least 1 vs. 2 high safety looks.

14 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

I'd guess more than 80% of passes from all QBs are their initial read.

I'd love to see this stat.

14 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

Most times a QB (even Brady) just waits for that one route to open up.

Most of the time, TB12 and other elite QB's can see presnap coverages and audible to their hot route to hit that first progression. Baker can't and is completely reliant upon the playcaller, who apparently has to be perfect for him to succeed.

14 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

Obviously it's easier with his level and amount of skill players to get a great matchup and win that expected matchup but it isn't like most QB go through multiple post snap reads each play.

Key words "post snap". Baker is slow going through his progressions, and he's slow because he doesn't know what coverage(s), pressure(s), or 1/2 high safety looks he's getting on most plays before he snaps the ball.

14 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

Maybe the coaching staff thinks they are helping but it certainly isn't. Or he is

They're definitely helping him as opposed to Hue and the 2019 season under Kitchens we don't speak of anymore. He's clearly better than he was then.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

7 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

I would love to know whats going on with Higgins. He can at least run clean routes and be where hes supposed to be--which is why Baker has always liked throwing him the ball. Same goes for Landry.

Im not really sure what to make of anybody else in that room. They all seem like great athletes but sub par route runners.

Its also why a guy like Olave would be great for this offense. Natural athlete and is one of the best route runners in the class.

I like Higgins well enough and maybe he plays more on Sunday with the TE’s out, but he’s pretty limited.

He runs decent routes, gets open and catches the ball.  All good stuff, but he’s pretty limited.

Not sure I’ve ever seen him on ST, which is kind of important for a depth player and he can’t beat man coverage.

Also, he’s clearly doing something that’s irking like, 3 coaching staffs at this point that fans aren’t aware of.  Dunno what, but he seems to find his way to the doghouse with each group.

[buno67]

8 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

Its also why a guy like Olave

Reminds me of Marvin Harrison. He is just so smooth with his route running too. He doesn’t waste time getting in and out of breaks and trying to break the DBs ankles. He would be the ideal rookie WR for me