The "Unwritten Rules"

[Turnobili]

1 minute ago, MWil23 said:

Are we really suggesting that an NFL team up 10 is the same margin for a baseball team being up 10?

no. i'm not making a 1-1 comparison based on the score. you want to have them up 20 instead with 5 minutes to go, fine. its the same underlying point

[mse326]

4 hours ago, MWil23 said:

3. A baserunner should never yell "I got it!" or "Mine!" on a pop up in the infield

That is actually a written rule. You'd be called out.

[redsoxsuck05]

18 hours ago, mse326 said:

That is actually a written rule. You'd be called out.

A-Rod lol

[mission27]

On 5/19/2021 at 10:17 PM, Turnobili said:

but is bunting a more effective way of getting on base?

In certain situations, bunting may be an effective strategy to improve your chances of getting 1 base hit.

But best case that hit is a single and you can only surprise bunt once and it also removes the possibility of getting on base via walk.  So its not generally an effective strategy for maximizing your overall offensive output. 

If you are down 5 runs, trying to bunt for a base hit is probably not a win % positive strategy.  The only reason you'd be doing it is basically to give yourself a slightly better chance of breaking up the no-no which is why people view it as bush league.  

[Turnobili]

55 minutes ago, mission27 said:

In certain situations, bunting may be an effective strategy to improve your chances of getting 1 base hit.

But best case that hit is a single and you can only surprise bunt once and it also removes the possibility of getting on base via walk.  So its not generally an effective strategy for maximizing your overall offensive output. 

If you are down 5 runs, trying to bunt for a base hit is probably not a win % positive strategy.  The only reason you'd be doing it is basically to give yourself a slightly better chance of breaking up the no-no which is why people view it as bush league.  

But it’s typically a suboptimal way to get on base so it’s no more likely to break up a no no than swinging at a pitch. 

and even if it was more effective I’m still astonished that people think a team owes another teams player any favors in helping them achieve an individual accomplishment. 

[mission27]

15 minutes ago, Turnobili said:

But it’s typically a suboptimal way to get on base so it’s no more likely to break up a no no than swinging at a pitch. 

and even if it was more effective I’m still astonished that people think a team owes another teams player any favors in helping them achieve an individual accomplishment. 

Nobody is saying you owe the other team any favors.  The difference in this situation is you are doing something that: 

1. Probably hurts your teams chances to win, on balance

2. Slightly increases the chances of breaking up the no-hitter (while still reducing overall expected runs scored) 

At that point you aren't putting in a good faith effort to compete, you're just trying to ruin the no-hitter for the sake of ruining the no-hitter, and a lot of people myself included would say that's a bush league move.

In a situation where bunting is the smart play to try and win the game, I would agree with what others have said that there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing that.  In that situation not bunting would be doing the other team a favor at your own expense.

[mission27]

It would be like intentionally walking a guy every plate appearance when he's chasing a battle title or home run record.  That obviously doesn't help you win the game, exactly the opposite.  You're just trying to screw the other guy over.

[Turnobili]

16 minutes ago, mission27 said:

Nobody is saying you owe the other team any favors.  The difference in this situation is you are doing something that: 

1. Probably hurts your teams chances to win, on balance

2. Slightly increases the chances of breaking up the no-hitter (while still reducing overall expected runs scored) 

At that point you aren't putting in a good faith effort to compete, you're just trying to ruin the no-hitter for the sake of ruining the no-hitter, and a lot of people myself included would say that's a bush league move.

In a situation where bunting is the smart play to try and win the game, I would agree with what others have said that there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing that.  In that situation not bunting would be doing the other team a favor at your own expense.

How is increasing your chances of getting to first decreasing your expected runs scored?

[mission27]

Just now, Turnobili said:

How is increasing your chances of getting to first decreasing your expected runs scored?

Because you don't score runs by getting to first.  You score runs by getting to home.  When you bunt, even if you succeed, the best thing that can happen is you get to first base.  If you don't bunt you could get to second, third, or hit a home run.  

And increasing your chances of getting a hit are not the same as increasing your chances of getting to first anyway because by bunting you miss out on the 5-20% chance (depending on the player) that you will walk or get hit by a pitch which would also result in getting to first base.  

If your goal is to score enough runs to comeback and win the game then giving up the potential for extra bases and walks for a slightly higher batting average reduces your win expectancy in most situations.  If your goal is just to break up the no-hitter, its a good strategy. 

For example if you were a .280 hitter with a .350 OBP and .500 slugging who gets a hit a third of the time when bunting.  Your slash line is...

Bunting: .330/.330/.330 or .660 OPS

Not Bunting: .280/.350/.500 or .850 OPS 

If your goal is to break up a no-hitter then bunting is the right play, you have about a 20% better chance of getting a hit by bunting. 

But if your goal is to maximize the teams overall offensive output then bunting is clearly not the best strategy.

[Turnobili]

26 minutes ago, mission27 said:

Because you don't score runs by getting to first.  You score runs by getting to home.  When you bunt, even if you succeed, the best thing that can happen is you get to first base.  If you don't bunt you could get to second, third, or hit a home run.  

And increasing your chances of getting a hit are not the same as increasing your chances of getting to first anyway because by bunting you miss out on the 5-20% chance (depending on the player) that you will walk or get hit by a pitch which would also result in getting to first base.  

If your goal is to score enough runs to comeback and win the game then giving up the potential for extra bases and walks for a slightly higher batting average reduces your win expectancy in most situations.  If your goal is just to break up the no-hitter, its a good strategy. 

For example if you were a .280 hitter with a .350 OBP and .500 slugging who gets a hit a third of the time when bunting.  Your slash line is...

Bunting: .330/.330/.330 or .660 OPS

Not Bunting: .280/.350/.500 or .850 OPS 

If your goal is to break up a no-hitter then bunting is the right play, you have about a 20% better chance of getting a hit by bunting. 

But if your goal is to maximize the teams overall offensive output then bunting is clearly not the best strategy.

ok so is it also an unwritten rule to take ball 4 when the pitcher has a perfect game going? because you're giving up your shot to hit a double, triple, etc. at some point this really just boils down to doing a favor for the opponent

[mse326]

51 minutes ago, Turnobili said:

ok so is it also an unwritten rule to take ball 4 when the pitcher has a perfect game going? because you're giving up your shot to hit a double, triple, etc. at some point this really just boils down to doing a favor for the opponent

You OBP on a walk is 1.000. That is also your OPS. The number of players that have an OPS over 1.000 is incredibly small. The number that have even half the OBP even smaller. The number that reach either of the marks by swinging at balls out of the zone is zero. So no it isn't remotely the same as bunting.

[mission27]

3 minutes ago, mse326 said:

You OBP on a walk is 1.000. That is also your OPS. The number of players that have an OPS over 1.000 is incredibly small. The number that have even half the OBP even smaller. The number that reach either of the marks by swinging at balls out of the zone is zero. So no it isn't remotely the same as bunting.

And the major flaw in OPS is that it significantly undervalues walks compared to singles.

Taking ball 4 is always a good idea.

[Turnobili]

3 minutes ago, mse326 said:

You OBP on a walk is 1.000. That is also your OPS. The number of players that have an OPS over 1.000 is incredibly small. The number that have even half the OBP even smaller. The number that reach either of the marks by swinging at balls out of the zone is zero. So no it isn't remotely the same as bunting.

ok so is bunting a cheat code that helps you get on base more than approaching an at bat a more traditional way, or not?

if not, then there's no problem with bunting against a pitcher who has a perfect game going any more than approaching the at-bat more traditionally

[mission27]

2 minutes ago, Turnobili said:

12 minutes ago, mse326 said:

You OBP on a walk is 1.000. That is also your OPS. The number of players that have an OPS over 1.000 is incredibly small. The number that have even half the OBP even smaller. The number that reach either of the marks by swinging at balls out of the zone is zero. So no it isn't remotely the same as bunting.

ok so is bunting a cheat code that helps you get on base more than approaching an at bat a more traditional way, or not?

 

I'm not sure what's so confusing about this... 

Its not a cheat code.  Its a bad strategy.  Everyone knows that its a bad strategy and that's exactly the point.  If you're doing it down 5 runs in a no-hitter, its pretty transparent that you aren't doing your best to win the game you are just trying to end the no-hitter for personal pride reasons.  

Something can increase your chance of getting a hit while simultaneously decreasing your chance of winning the game. 

[mse326]

11 minutes ago, Turnobili said:

ok so is bunting a cheat code that helps you get on base more than approaching an at bat a more traditional way, or not?

if not, then there's no problem with bunting against a pitcher who has a perfect game going any more than approaching the at-bat more traditionally

For some players they will get on base more often if they bunt. Others won't. Even the one's that get on base more often however do so at less value that if they did a normal at bat because they are giving up so much. So a normal a bat is what provides the most value even if for some they get on base slightly less often