Will the defense still be a top-11 unit this year?

[Sugashane]

13 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

I still believe that the poor stretch we saw from the defense was a result of Nagy simply breaking them. A so-called offensive guru whose offense simply couldn't do anything for big chunks of games? Yikes. Asking a defense to consistently win games is simply not a sustainable thing in today's NFL. 

It's been a while since I've voiced my disdain for the 3-4. Perfect opportunity to bring it back up! 😄

You can't rush 5 every down. There will be times that Mack will have to get back in coverage. And then the wonderful part is--3-4 D lineman aren't usually the best pass rushers! Perfect, eh? If I ran the club, I'd make it a 4-3, and have Mack with his hand on the ground for virtually every play. 

Honestly two years of completely inept offense and I don't blame them for being down. That's a good point I completely overlooked.

I was waiting for it  lol

Don't need to, just rush 3 DL and Mack every down. Like...a... 4-3? Really we had the formula right with Floyd. Mack almost always rushing (still had too much coverage) and Floyd was the optional 5th. Then when we went to nickel Mack go his hand in the dirt. Quinn should have been able to be a threat in nickel with a line like Quinn - Hicks - Nichols - Mack. I'm at the point of not even caring who actually starts at OLB opposite of Mack. Just get Mack rushing 99/100 downs and have a NASCAR package (that what Marinelli called it right? The passrushing package that pinned their ears back on 3rd down). For the non-nickel packages I would essentially run the 10 man defense like Lovie did with Peanut when facing Moss. Schedule 10 men's zones/coverages/rushpoints and then let Peanut do what he needs. But rather than cover one guy all over the field I send Mack to attack every play, let him pick and choose his alleys and try to use his awareness to find lanes.

[soulman]

16 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

I still believe that the poor stretch we saw from the defense was a result of Nagy simply breaking them. A so-called offensive guru whose offense simply couldn't do anything for big chunks of games? Yikes. Asking a defense to consistently win games is simply not a sustainable thing in today's NFL. 

It's been a while since I've voiced my disdain for the 3-4. Perfect opportunity to bring it back up! 😄

You can't rush 5 every down. There will be times that Mack will have to get back in coverage. And then the wonderful part is--3-4 D lineman aren't usually the best pass rushers! Perfect, eh? If I ran the club, I'd make it a 4-3, and have Mack with his hand on the ground for virtually every play. 

They aren't in any kind of a position to return to a base 4-3 now but before Pagano made some of his changes in 2020 we did run some hybrid 4-3 fronts with Fangio.  We may not have a single DT who can rush like Aaron Donald but collectively Hicks, Goldman, Nichols, and Edwards can bring inside pressure and get sacks.

On average Goldman, Edwards and Nichols can probably combine for a dozen or sacks and provide consistent pressure.  The guy whose fallen off is Hicks but is it all because of missing 12 games over the past two years, injuries and age taking their toll, missing Goldman last year, or was it Pagano's schemes?

Under Fangio Hicks was producing 7-8 sacks a year and constant penetration and pressure.  When he's 100% he's virtually unblockable but he hasn't been 100% for two seasons now.  Goldman is back which should take some pressure off others needing to sit on a run play and Nichols had a break out year in 2020.  If Hicks can put together another good season along with Edwards and Nichols maybe we get 12-15 sacks from those three and another 2-3 from Goldman but the bigger number need to come from the edge.

Mack was playing hurt quite a bit of the year and was apparently more handicapped in Pagano's schemes than in Fangio's but then Quinn wasn't able to step up into his role and help due to his still recovering from an injury.  That was not a very healthy group last year and we missed Goldman as well.

Desai's challenge has to be getting these guys back on track as far as the pass rush goes.  Without it his secondary stands to be more exposed than it may be able to cope with.  Pace added Attaochu as a hedge against Quinn flopping again and Gipson needs to step into a role as a primary backup so that Mack can take a few breaks and preserve himself for a longer season.  Before I make a call on these guys and their careers I want to see what they do under Desai and the two new defensive assistant for the DL and Edge/OLB.

[Sugashane]

1 hour ago, soulman said:

They aren't in any kind of a position to return to a base 4-3 now but before Pagano made some of his changes in 2020 we did run some hybrid 4-3 fronts with Fangio.  We may not have a single DT who can rush like Aaron Donald but collectively Hicks, Goldman, Nichols, and Edwards can bring inside pressure and get sacks.

 

Idk. We would have to go to the older 4-3 like under Jauron. Depth is clearly the issue for any change but as far as a starting group I think we'd be fine. 

Quinn - Goldman - Hicks - Mack if you want both Quinn and Mack's hands in the dirt on an every play basis. 

 

Or if you want to go the 2001 version of three stout run defenders and one passrushing End & one passrushing OLB we already can have that. 

Quinn (rush) - Goldman - Hicks - Nichols

DT - Smith - Mack (rush)

 

Where as we had in 2001

Daniels (rush) - Washington - Traylor - Robinson

Holdman - Urlacher- Colvin (rush)

 

We're in nickel enough we pretty much run a 4-2 base like any 4-3 is in nickel. 

 

I'm not advocating for a change since I think the passing nature has diminished the differences between the two some, but I just thought it was interesting. 3-4 has more mobile players preseason which COULD make it easier to disguise blitzes, coverage, etc but if you're running a base constantly (Lovies Tampa 2 or Fangios 3-4) then it is simply about scheme fit and execution. 

[Heinz D.]

7 hours ago, soulman said:

They aren't in any kind of a position to return to a base 4-3 now but before Pagano made some of his changes in 2020 we did run some hybrid 4-3 fronts with Fangio.  We may not have a single DT who can rush like Aaron Donald but collectively Hicks, Goldman, Nichols, and Edwards can bring inside pressure and get sacks.

Oh no, they're definitely not. I'm not suggesting it would be an easy fix. Looking at current personnel--they'd probably have to jettison everybody but a handful (like maybe five) guys. It would be an undertaking. It wouldn't be like just flipping a switch, or something. 

But it would be worth it. There's a reason the bulk of the NFL rolls with the 4-3. 

[soulman]

What's become hilarious to me is all through the FA period teams needs and signings are dissected by the media and winners and losers trophies are handed out.  Then come pre-draft and the draft itself.

Most of the media gave the Bears a poor grade for FA yet by my observation they filled most every obvious need they had as best they could given how little cap they had to work with.  Vet QB?  Check  More speed at WR?  Check  A legit #2 vet RB  Check  Depth at OT?  Check.  Re-sign starting Safety?  Check  Replace #1 CB with experienced vet?  Check  Add depth at Edge?  Check  They got a lot done even if the signings were not all top shelf prospects and mostly because we couldn't afford top shelf prospects.

Bears fans became unhappy but why?  Mostly because of Dalton I'd say and mostly because of media negativity and in the process they completely ignored where experienced depth and competition had been added on both sides of the ball.  At least a few positions looked better after FA than before but some media types even gave the Bears an "F" and many fans nodded and booed.

Then comes the draft itself.

Pace's maneuvering finally pays off with a prize rookie QB and an OT plus a couple of late round picks who were ranked to go much sooner than they did.  Now that same media trips over itself to hand Ryan Pace the drafts imaginary "Gil Brandt" trophy (over whatever you'd like to call it) for pulling off all of his draft coups and rates the Bears draft as the #1 overall NFL draft.  Bears fans go wild and Pace is finally back in most everyone's good graces.

Now, here we are less than a week later and the media needing something to write about begins once again to hone in on the negatives and doubts and like good little media soldiers we follow their lead and start in with the negatives all over again.  Isn't anyone else getting tired of playing this game?

[JAF-N72EX]

@soulman Pessimism is in our nature, Soul. The secondary is a legit concern.  The media and fans are always going to find some kind of negativity to stir the pot. It's the same with every team.

You want optimism.......then here you go. QB is no longer a concern in 2021 and hopefully for the next decade. 😉

 

[soulman]

4 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

@soulman Pessimism is in our nature, Soul. The secondary is a legit concern.  The media and fans are always going to find some kind of negativity to stir the pot. It's the same with every team.

You want optimism.......then here you go. QB is no longer a concern in 2021 and hopefully for the next decade. 😉

 

I would think finally getting another to rookie QB should be enough of an optimism generator to offset any pessimism.  It's like seeing that Red Ryder BB Gun under the tree on Christmas morning that should make anyone forget about the other more functional presents like new underwear and socks.  🤣

Last night I did read a piece saying the Bears were kicking Bashaud Breeland's tires so maybe they aren't done stacking the secondary yet.

[Heinz D.]

On 5/24/2021 at 8:08 PM, soulman said:

Bears fans go wild and Pace is finally back in most everyone's good graces.

I loved the draft, but let's face it, that was because Pace FINALLY began to address some of the most serious problems on the team.

I still cast a weary eye at Pace...he's far from my "good graces". I never hated him, I simply thought he should be fired because you can't trust a GM that has thrown you into such a terrible predicament to get you out of it. 

On 5/24/2021 at 8:08 PM, soulman said:

Now, here we are less than a week later and the media needing something to write about begins once again to hone in on the negatives and doubts and like good little media soldiers we follow their lead and start in with the negatives all over again.  Isn't anyone else getting tired of playing this game?

It does grate on one's nerves. If the Bears were a perennially good team, none of that weird media rub would be happening, though. 

[soulman]

22 minutes ago, Heinz D. said:

I loved the draft, but let's face it, that was because Pace FINALLY began to address some of the most serious problems on the team.

I still cast a weary eye at Pace...he's far from my "good graces". I never hated him, I simply thought he should be fired because you can't trust a GM that has thrown you into such a terrible predicament to get you out of it. 

It does grate on one's nerves. If the Bears were a perennially good team, none of that weird media rub would be happening, though. 

IHMO some media types and sources would still be tossing handfuls of monkey dung at them.  My theory is that no matter who your "home team" is if you're also a Packer Fan then you must heap hate upon the Bears and many in the media are closet Packer Fans.  They also like to dress in cheese hats and cheese bras and wear cheese colored panties.  That's why the hide in their closets. 🤣

And I did say "most" fans have welcomed Pace back into the family but there are still those who'd make him sleep in the basement if he showed up at a sleepover.  Hope you'll at least give him two blankets.  Concrete floors are hard and cold.  😁

[BeaReylo]

On 5/23/2021 at 11:32 PM, soulman said:

Agreed.  I feel that as we got more into the Pagano schemes and away from the Fangio ones in Pagano's second year the defense was not the same and not just because of Goldman's absence and key injuries to our stud defenders.  Things just seemed more ill suited to the specific talents of certain players, our best players really.

This is pure speculation but the decline may have been behind why Pagano was persuaded to (ahem) "retire" and graciously avoid the embarrassment of being replaced by a rookie DC who would bring back most of those Fangio style schemes.  It's not so much that Pagano's defense was terrible but it wasn't as effective as it had been.

Pagano has had mostly mediocre defenses throughout his DC career.  His only outstanding year, as one, was with The Ravens who had a stacked D-Unit and parlayed that into a head coaching gig.  After that  his defenses were middle of the road to out and out basement dwellers. 

With amount of talent Pace has invested into the defense they can still be a dominating force or at the very least above average group with half way decent coaching.  If the new DC takes a page from Fangio's book the defense will return to form.

Edited May 26, 2021 by FosterTheSkins

[soulman]

24 minutes ago, FosterTheSkins said:

Pagano has had mostly mediocre defenses throughout his DC career.  His only outstanding year, as one, was with The Ravens who had a stacked D-Unit and parlayed that into a head coaching gig.  After that  his defenses were middle of the road to out and out basement dwellers. 

With amount of talent Pace has invested into the defense they can still be a dominating force or at the very least above average group with half way decent coaching.  If the new DC takes a page from Fangio's book the defense will return to form.

I'll be the first to admit that over the past two seasons I watched less and less Bears football.  Each game seemed like a repeat of some former game kind of like watching repeats of the Andy Griffith show back to back for 72 hours.  The only question was who was gonna be Goober this week.

But my sense of it was that Pagano played very conservatively when what he had was a defense that needed to play more aggressively and take more risks in order to induce turnovers and game changing plays as they often did under Fangio.  They became as predictable on defense as they were on offense.

Initially I didn't believe losing Fangio would make that much difference but I was wrong.  Of course I'm a bit wary of a rookie DC taking over yet glad he's going back to employing more of the style of defense Fangio did.  Until the offense demonstrates it can routinely score more than 20 points  per game the defense needs to play aggressively and produce more turnovers.

Edited May 26, 2021 by soulman

[Heinz D.]

1 hour ago, soulman said:

IHMO some media types and sources would still be tossing handfuls of monkey dung at them.  My theory is that no matter who your "home team" is if you're also a Packer Fan then you must heap hate upon the Bears and many in the media are closet Packer Fans.  They also like to dress in cheese hats and cheese bras and wear cheese colored panties.  That's why the hide in their closets. 🤣

And I did say "most" fans have welcomed Pace back into the family but there are still those who'd make him sleep in the basement if he showed up at a sleepover.  Hope you'll at least give him two blankets.  Concrete floors are hard and cold.  😁

Well...you're right, and then there's the flip side. When you look at the national media, how much shade have they really thrown Belichick's way, over what transpired last season? Or, look at the Packers themselves. Rodgers is absolutely right in his criticisms of the franchise. Are the Packers being taken apart be the national media? 

Nope. Winning gives teams a big cushion that protects them from (even deserved) criticism. It's crazy, but it's true. 

[soulman]

2 minutes ago, Heinz D. said:

Or, look at the Packers themselves. Rodgers is absolutely right in his criticisms of the franchise. Are the Packers being taken apart be the national media?

Somewhat like New England there are traditions in GB which must be observed.  Those traditions go back to the days of Lombardi.  It's "Green Bay way" and one does not violate those traditions and principles and remain in good standing with either the team or the populace. 

The Packer organization is very rich and powerful and much like the Patriots you do not own them.  They own you.  By going public with his battle against Gutekunst, Mark Murphy,and the Packer front office he's fighting something he can't defeat especially not at his age.

The Packers drafted Love in anticipation of moving on from Rodgers possibly as early as next season when he can be traded and also provide over $22 mil of cap relief.  Rodgers doesn't appreciate that because it gives them too much control of his future and not him so he's pushing the issue now while his dead cap is greater than his cap hit and he still has at least some leverage.  I get it but most of GB fans won't.

He's the NFL VP and he knows GB stands to get a bundle in exchange for him.  That doesn't benefit him personally but more guaranteed money does and it also tends to lock him into playing in GB longer since his dead cap will increase because of it.  He saw how Brady pretty much forced the trades of Garapollo and Brissett in NE and if you don't believe Aaron Rodgers would love to have that same degree of control over the Packers and force them to trade Love then I think we under estimate him.  He's very envious of Tom Brady.

From what little we know it appears the Packers are willing to pay him more but not or in the manner he wants.  So the game is now I stay away until they agree to what I want or trade me now and I'll work that all out with my next team but I'm not about to give you all the leverage and keep playing in GB under my current deal so you can trade me when it's most convenient for you. So who blinks first?

[Heinz D.]

5 minutes ago, soulman said:

Somewhat like New England there are traditions in GB which must be observed.  Those traditions go back to the days of Lombardi.  It's "Green Bay way" and one does not violate those traditions and principles and remain in good standing with either the team or the populace. 

The Packer organization is very rich and powerful and much like the Patriots you do not own them.  They own you.  By going public with his battle against Gutekunst, Mark Murphy,and the Packer front office he's fighting something he can't defeat especially not at his age.

The Packers drafted Love in anticipation of moving on from Rodgers possibly as early as next season when he can be traded and also provide over $22 mil of cap relief.  Rodgers doesn't appreciate that because it gives them too much control of his future and not him so he's pushing the issue now while his dead cap is greater than his cap hit and he still has at least some leverage.  I get it but most of GB fans won't.

He's the NFL VP and he knows GB stands to get a bundle in exchange for him.  That doesn't benefit him personally but more guaranteed money does and it also tends to lock him into playing in GB longer since his dead cap will increase because of it.  He saw how Brady pretty much forced the trades of Garapollo and Brissett in NE and if you don't believe Aaron Rodgers would love to have that same degree of control over the Packers and force them to trade Love then I think we under estimate him.  He's very envious of Tom Brady.

From what little we know it appears the Packers are willing to pay him more but not or in the manner he wants.  So the game is now I stay away until they agree to what I want or trade me now and I'll work that all out with my next team but I'm not about to give you all the leverage and keep playing in GB under my current deal so you can trade me when it's most convenient for you. So who blinks first?

Rodgers was very specific in the ESPN interview...talking about the "people" involved in the NFL franchise calculus, the "personalities".

Pretty clear what he means by that. The Packers are stuck in the 1950s. They're telling him you're our little soldier...you do what we want.

The only offensive player the Pack has drafted in the first round in the last ten years is the guy they think might replace Rodgers. Just consider what us Bears fans would feel about that reality, if all that nonsense was transpiring in Chicago. Nobody on this board would side against Rodgers...but take a look at the Cheeseheads here. A bunch want Rodgers gone YESTERDAY!

Crazy, crazy stuff. From what is being relayed (leaked?), in the most recent conversations between the camps, Rodgers flat-out said Gutekunst needs to go. Kind of unfair to Gute, IMO, as the real problem is Mark Murphy...but the Packers are never going to agree to that sort of demand.

Rodgers will be traded. 

(Just realized this is in the "Top 11 Defense" thread...how the **** did we get HERE? 😆)

[soulman]

34 minutes ago, Heinz D. said:

Pretty clear what he means by that. The Packers are stuck in the 1950s. They're telling him you're our little soldier...you do what we want.

The only offensive player the Pack has drafted in the first round in the last ten years is the guy they think might replace Rodgers. Just consider what us Bears fans would feel about that reality, if all that nonsense was transpiring in Chicago. Nobody on this board would side against Rodgers...but take a look at the Cheeseheads here. A bunch want Rodgers gone YESTERDAY!

Because he has violated "The Green Bay Way" and one does not do that.  They aren't stuck in the '50s they're stuck in the '60s when Vince Lombardi put a little town of 50,000 people on the national map by winning the first two Super Bowl Games ever.  It became "TitleTown" then and it has been for them ever since.

You're probably old enough to recall this story too and I know a whole lot of Packer Fans are since it's been passed down from generation to generation.  How truthful it is isn't the point.  The point is the legend itself and maybe it first example of "The Green Bay Way".

Jim Ringo was the Packer HOF OC from 1953-1963.  Following the '63 season he asked for a significant raise.  Far more than Lombardi was willing to grant him.  So Ringo set an appointment with St. Vince to negotiate then showed up to the meeting with his agent.  Lombardi allowed them to plead their case then excused himself for 10 minutes or so saying he had to take an important call.

When he returned he said their meeting was over.  When they asked why Lombardi told the agent he was negotiating with the wrong team because his guy played for Philadelphia now. LOL

As important as Aaron Rodgers may be to GB winning yet another Super Bowl they're a multi-billion dollar corporation run by a board of directors entirely made up of very rich local bigwigs who hire and fire front office personnel.  For Rodgers to insist Gutekunst be fired is stepping way over the line of what would be considered acceptable negotiating and making it public is even worse.

Murphy isn't gonna even bat an eye in refusing that demand and he'll have the backing of the entire board of directors who could buy or sell Aaron Rodgers in a New York minute.  However, I do give Aaron some credit for knowing how to use what little leverage he has left right now to his advantage.  No matter what GB decides he's decided to make them uncomfortable with their decision.

Edited May 27, 2021 by soulman