GordyTheGoffer Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 (edited) Absolutely - Just look at Andrew Luck, he was ruined to the extent that he walked away from hundreds of millions of $$ -- a diabolical shame Edited May 21, 2021 by GordyTheGoffer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamblinMan99 Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, GordyTheGoffer said: Absolutely - Just look at Andrew Luck, he was ruined to the extent that he walked away from hundreds of millions of $$ -- a diabolical shame Absolutely not. Indianapolis wasn’t the problem for Andrew Luck. He himself was the problem. He forwent the draft to stay in college. He was never fully serious about playing football. Not to say he was Johnny Manziel because he wasn’t. Luck definitely had a good head on his shoulders but just wasn’t fully committed to playing pro football. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordyTheGoffer Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 (edited) 29 minutes ago, RamblinMan99 said: Absolutely not. Indianapolis wasn’t the problem for Andrew Luck. He himself was the problem. He forwent the draft to stay in college. He was never fully serious about playing football. Not to say he was Johnny Manziel because he wasn’t. Luck definitely had a good head on his shoulders but just wasn’t fully committed to playing pro football. I don't know the man personally so wont argue it however from what I saw and heard the Colts failed to adequately protect Luck year on year and the injuries were a huge part of his reasoning, the fact that hes a smart cookie with a life's sum of money in the bank played its part but just meant it was easier for him. imo the game is worse off now that he's not in it Edited May 21, 2021 by GordyTheGoffer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkronsWitness Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 (edited) Ask Tim Couch and his NFL career. I will go to the grave saying that he deserved and WAS a much better QB than the expansion team and surrounding talent allowed. His career basically got ended because the Browns employed bad WRs and 5 turnstiles that got him punished on the OL for years. So yes, systems/teams can ruin a QB. Edited May 21, 2021 by AkronsWitness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7DnBrnc53 Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 (edited) 54 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said: Ask Tim Couch and his NFL career. I will go to the grave saying that he deserved and WAS a much better QB than the expansion team and surrounding talent allowed. His career basically got ended because the Browns employed bad WRs and 5 turnstiles that got him punished on the OL for years. So yes, systems/teams can ruin a QB. That's why first-year expansion teams have no business taking a QB (unless it's Elway or Peyton or Trevor Lawrence). Organizations can also make QB's. Look at Montana and Brady. No way they are HOF in most other situations. I know that they went to teams late in their careers and won, but the Chiefs were already an established playoff team, and the Bucs were a few plays away from having a winning record in 2019. Edited May 21, 2021 by 7DnBrnc53 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted May 21, 2021 Author Share Posted May 21, 2021 20 hours ago, Mr Raider said: I mean I agree with that. But the context is everything, what are we classifying as flat out garbage? Like JaMarcus Russell? The Raiders did him virtually zero favors, but they didn't ruin him. His lack of work ethic, leadership, passion for the game, understanding of the game, accuracy, etc are what ruined him. He would have busted regardless of situation IMO. Like does RG3 count past his rookie season? How abot Sam Bradford? Jameis Winston and Mariota? Are we strictly talking the guys like Blaine Gabbert, Jake Locker, Christian Ponder, EJ Manuel, Ryan Leaf, Manziel, Kyle Boller, Leinert, Weeden, etc type of busts? I personally wouldn't say Sanchez (from the original post) was awful on the level of guys like Russell, Manuel, Gabbert. Though Sanchez certainly wasn't good lol. I wouldn't argue Sanchez was one of the guys that should have a real argument made that he was ruined by the franchise that drafted him. The type of guys I would consider deserving of an argument like that would be David Carr, Tim Couch, guys that were drafted to expansion level talent. Not just your typical bad/lack of talent of the teams picking top 5 most NFL drafts. Carr and Couch were tasked with being the #1 overall pick and the literal franchise for expansion teams that were totally devoid of talent. Carr was brutalized at a level no other young QB has ever experienced, especially to begin their career. His time in Houston was filled with sky high expectations, nothing exceptional coaching wise, very little talent anywhere else on the field. He didn't really have one thing to point to as a service to his development like a lot of high first round QBs get. He was put into a situation where I find it hard to believe ANYONE would have found success in his position. I have no idea if Carr would have been great somewhere else. But I feel comfortable saying that he was put into a situation that actively hurt his development and ability on the field, and was sacked at such a rate so early that coming back from and overcoming long term is an unreasonable ask IMO. For the sake of this argument “flat out garbage” would be bottom 5 starter in the league. I’ll use some of the QBs you cited Jamarcus- we agree, all time arm just an idiot. Jameis-Good arm but a terrible decision maker going back to college and pretty poor accuracy. He’s the same player he was at FSU, TB’s success this season pretty much destroys the whole tampa ruined him. He just can’t play RG3- Washington is a bad organization but Mike is a borderline HOF HC and his son Kyle the OC is one of the best offensive kinds of his generation. I would argue that first season their system protected him and hid his flaws. But you can only do that for so long. Bradford-Really accurate but couldn’t stay healthy. The rams were a dumpster fire but I wouldn’t say they’re ruined him. Again he wasn’t exactly great when he went other places. Sanchez- Was given the best offensive line, a top defense, running game and still sucked. He definitely wasn’t ruined by the jets. My problem with Couch and Carr was they were dragged to expansion team disasters. That’s not the typical scenario for all these busts, they were just drafted to regular bad teams. None of the QBs in the first round this year were drafted to the 1999 Browns Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted May 21, 2021 Author Share Posted May 21, 2021 47 minutes ago, 7DnBrnc53 said: That's why first-year expansion teams have no business taking a QB (unless it's Elway or Peyton or Trevor Lawrence). Organizations can also make QB's. Look at Montana and Brady. No way they are HOF in most other situations. I know that they went to teams late in their careers and won, but the Chiefs were already an established playoff team, and the Bucs were a few plays away from having a winning record in 2019. Your Brady talking points have destroyed year in and year out for a decade but you keep coming back. You can’t use the Patriots system argument anymore and it infuriates you lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClutchDJ Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 4 hours ago, NYRaider said: I mean just to give one example Mahomes got to sit for a year under Andy Reid and then immediately stepped into an offense that featured Hill, Watkins, Kelce, Hunt on a team that made the playoffs the previous two seasons. While Josh Rosen had to step in and start from day one with almost zero talent around him. Mahomes stepped into a situation while the team that did make the playoffs, they were early playoff exits & were never to be taken seriously. For Rosen, was it because Josh Rosen was that bad that he made the cast around him looked significantly worse than perceived? Why is not that? Because pre-draft narratives were dead set on him not busting so it’s cool to put all the blame on the organization(s) around him? Same goes for Sam Darnold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 28 minutes ago, ClutchDJ said: Mahomes stepped into a situation while the team that did make the playoffs, they were early playoff exits & were never to be taken seriously. For Rosen, was it because Josh Rosen was that bad that he made the cast around him looked significantly worse than perceived? Why is not that? Because pre-draft narratives were dead set on him not busting so it’s cool to put all the blame on the organization(s) around him? Same goes for Sam Darnold. Some guys are definitely overrated but if you look at most of the top tier QB's in the league they went to good situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkronsWitness Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 1 hour ago, CP3MVP said: Your Brady talking points have destroyed year in and year out for a decade but you keep coming back. You can’t use the Patriots system argument anymore and it infuriates you lol My talking point with Brady has always been his defenses helped win him multiple rings. The dude has seemed to travel with a top 5 defense every year of his career. Last year he changed teams, but the defense didn't change. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DontTazeMeBro Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 No. If you can be mentally broken like that you were too ***** made for the NFL in the first place. The other way people are taking it. That good QBs can be held down by crappy supporting casts and playcallers. Absolutely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turnobili Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 generally speaking, yes. look how long it takes for the league to give up on failed QBs. 2-3 years. being on a bad team with a toxic environment can certainly make those years look abysmal. also stunts your development. theoretically if the league gave guys more time, have them bounce around for 5-6+ years they wouldn't be "ruined" but just stunted or delayed, but thats not usually how things work 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7DnBrnc53 Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 5 hours ago, CP3MVP said: Your Brady talking points have destroyed year in and year out for a decade but you keep coming back. You can’t use the Patriots system argument anymore and it infuriates you lol Destroyed? By who? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPPT1974 Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 Well it seems that dual threat QBs are in the NFL these days. As that look at Mahomes, Jackson, Murray, Allen, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 8 hours ago, RamblinMan99 said: Absolutely not. Indianapolis wasn’t the problem for Andrew Luck. He himself was the problem. He forwent the draft to stay in college. He was never fully serious about playing football. Not to say he was Johnny Manziel because he wasn’t. Luck definitely had a good head on his shoulders but just wasn’t fully committed to playing pro football. ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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