Do you think teams can “ruin” Qb’s?

[CP3MVP]

4 hours ago, lancerman said:

It's extremely rare for a QB to completely turn their level of play around after the first 5 years of development. That foundation is critical. After that as an athlete you are in your mid to late 20's and you just kinda are what you are. Kurt Warner is the most notable exception in that he did it 6 years in. But he had a **** ton of support on offense and it lasted a whopping 3 years and then he had one more good year in Arizona after that. 

 

It’s extremely rare because most QBs who are awful early are terrible their entire careers. 
 

There’s  a reason why Steve Young is seen as a huge exception . In the last 30 years how many QBs were complete garbage and then became great? Alex Smith was trash and become a decent game manager on loaded teams, who else? Tannehil was medicore and became really good. But flat out awful? 

Edited May 23, 2021 by CP3MVP

[Jakuvious]

8 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

It’s extremely rare because most QBs who are awful early are terrible their entire careers. 
 

There’s  a reason why Steve Young is seen as a huge exception . In the last 30 years how many QBs were complete garbage and then became great? Alex Smith was trash and become a decent game manager on loaded teams, who else? Tannehil was medicore and became really good. But flat out awful? 

Aspects of Peyton's game went from trash to great from year one and then beyond. Josh Allen, Jared Goff, John Elway had an atrocious rookie season, Eli taking over his rookie year basically ended the season for a competitive Giants team, Bernie Kosar struggled to complete half his passes when he first came into the league, while Drew Bledsoe actually failed to complete half his passes his rookie year, Jeff Garcia was benched twice in his rookie season, Brett Favre very well may have been another Steve Young, but the Falcons cut their losses after 4 pass attempts from him, 2003 Drew Breees is a huge part of why the Chargers could and did draft Philip Rivers.

Plenty of QBs have sucked and then figured it out. It's why fans always still have hope when their rookie QB sucks to begin with. There is a pretty wide variety of development paths that QBs have taken. Some have sucked and then figured it out. Some have started off very mediocre or as game managers and then became legit hall of fame caliber QBs, some have taken the league by storm from day one. But honestly, the question you ask in and of itself has sample size issues anyways. How many QBs were garbage and then became great? I mean, how many QBs have been great anyways? It's like when people talk about the lack of success at taking a QB at certain spots in the draft. Any statistic around players becoming great QBs is going to look like a failure just due to the rarity of becoming a great QB.

[Jakuvious]

11 hours ago, CP3MVP said:

No those players just sucked. 
 

And again, if Matt Stafford wasn’t “ruined” on the worst team ever, you have no excuse. 

I mean, Stafford wasn't actually on the 08 Lions, though. He played a little for the 09 Lions, sucked, and by the time he really saw time after that, the '11 Lions were actually quite talented. Solid OL, CJ/Burleson/Young/Pettigrew was a fantastic receiving corp, and even some good pieces on D with Suh and Levy and Avril. Most importantly, the '08 coaching staff basically all retired in shame, and never got their hands on Stafford.

But, truthfully, I take far more issue with the first line in your post here, as throwaway as it kind of seems, because I feel like you're using that as just a get out of jail free card in the context of this discussion. Because your stance in this argument has no nuance and no wiggle room whatsoever. You've taken the hard line black and white stance of, players who suck, suck, players who are good, will be good. So ultimately, this will always be your response. No matter what example is thrown out, if it's about a player who turned out bad, you're just going to say he just sucked and that was it, and if it's about a player who succeeded, you'll say he was always going to be good because he was just a good QB. And if that's your genuine stance, fine, but that isn't really conducive to any kind of discussion, here. Your stance isn't going to move anywhere, and I feel that was already decided before you made the thread, so it just all feels kind of pointless.

[CP3MVP]

12 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

Aspects of Peyton's game went from trash to great from year one and then beyond. Josh Allen, Jared Goff, John Elway had an atrocious rookie season, Eli taking over his rookie year basically ended the season for a competitive Giants team, Bernie Kosar struggled to complete half his passes when he first came into the league, while Drew Bledsoe actually failed to complete half his passes his rookie year, Jeff Garcia was benched twice in his rookie season, Brett Favre very well may have been another Steve Young, but the Falcons cut their losses after 4 pass attempts from him, 2003 Drew Breees is a huge part of why the Chargers could and did draft Philip Rivers.

Plenty of QBs have sucked and then figured it out. It's why fans always still have hope when their rookie QB sucks to begin with. There is a pretty wide variety of development paths that QBs have taken. Some have sucked and then figured it out. Some have started off very mediocre or as game managers and then became legit hall of fame caliber QBs, some have taken the league by storm from day one. But honestly, the question you ask in and of itself has sample size issues anyways. How many QBs were garbage and then became great? I mean, how many QBs have been great anyways? It's like when people talk about the lack of success at taking a QB at certain spots in the draft. Any statistic around players becoming great QBs is going to look like a failure just due to the rarity of becoming a great QB.

Nope there’s a difference between sucking your rookie year or having one down season and being garbage for several and than magically turning it around. 
 

Alex Smith sucked his first 5 years than became a good starter. That’s rare.

[RamblinMan99]

On 5/22/2021 at 9:39 PM, Thelonebillsfan said:

He played football with a lacerated kidney

That means nothing.  
 

Ben Roethlisberger has had every injury you can imagine and he still keeps coming back. He doesn’t have to by any means but he has that hard of a time leaving the game entirely.

There are a ton of QBs in the league that face those kinds of injuries consistently.  
 

Hell, Alex Smith almost lost his leg and he still came back.  

Andrew Luck was no exception

The way he suddenly quit and left the game was disgraceful for Indianapolis.  It really was.  He definitely could have kept playing. 
 

He could have entered the draft his sophomore year in college but decided to stay to work on his architecture degree.  
 

Anybody who is dead serious about playing pro football would have never had that mindset from the start.  
 

Yes, Luck was a very good QB in the NFL, but that said nothing about his drive for the game or lack thereof.  
 

Anybody who really knew Andrew Luck saw it coming years prior.  

[Ty21]

I’m a bears fan

[Daniel]

Teams ruining QBs is the only logical explanation for the QBs I like busting in the NFL.

[Thelonebillsfan]

3 hours ago, RamblinMan99 said:

That means nothing.  

This is absolute nonsense. Ridiculous, pathological nonsense. 

[7DnBrnc53]

3 hours ago, RamblinMan99 said:

Andrew Luck was no exception

The way he suddenly quit and left the game was disgraceful for Indianapolis.  It really was.  He definitely could have kept playing. 
 

He could have entered the draft his sophomore year in college but decided to stay to work on his architecture degree.  
 

Anybody who is dead serious about playing pro football would have never had that mindset from the start.  
 

Yes, Luck was a very good QB in the NFL, but that said nothing about his drive for the game or lack thereof.  
 

Anybody who really knew Andrew Luck saw it coming years prior.  

 

I don't blame Andrew Luck for trying to finish his degree. College athletes are exploited all the time. Those universities really don't care about them.

I got one example of this from Brian Tuohy's book The Fix Is Still In: Corruption and Conspiracies the Sports Leagues Don't Want You to Know About.

In 1980, Jan Kemp, an English professor at the University of Georgia, said that she was fired because she wouldn't inflate grades of several football players in her Remedial English class. The university did it without her consent, and they were eligible to play in the Sugar Bowl against Notre Dame.

As a result, she sued the school for wrongful termination and won. After her victory, she said this:

Quote

"All over the country athletes are used to produce revenue. I've seen what happens when the lights dim and the crowd fades. They're left with nothing. I want that stopped".

I know this was 40 years ago, but it still rings true today.

And, what should be disgraceful for Indianapolis is that Ryan Grigson, who played OL in college, still somehow didn't understand how important the offensive line is during his tenure as GM.

[RamblinMan99]

18 minutes ago, Thelonebillsfan said:

This is absolute nonsense. Ridiculous, pathological nonsense. 

How is it in any way pathological?  
 

You try to make it look like everybody should have more sympathy for him than any other NFL quarterback.  

He did his team so wrong.  Even his timing was off.  If you’re going to walk away from the league at 29 years old, that’s bad enough, but then he did it right before the season even started.  
 

That was so unfair to his team. 

[Sad People]

2 hours ago, RamblinMan99 said:

How is it in any way pathological?  
 

You try to make it look like everybody should have more sympathy for him than any other NFL quarterback.  

He did his team so wrong.  Even his timing was off.  If you’re going to walk away from the league at 29 years old, that’s bad enough, but then he did it right before the season even started.  
 

That was so unfair to his team. 

Theres nothing wrong with walking away from something you dont like or any passion for. Its also unfair to Luck for doing something he doesnt want to do or put his health on line for something he doesnt believe in or want to do anymore.

[RamblinMan99]

21 hours ago, mattyice0401 said:

Theres nothing wrong with walking away from something you dont like or any passion for. Its also unfair to Luck for doing something he doesnt want to do or put his health on line for something he doesnt believe in or want to do anymore.

I’m not going to get into the debate on whether or not he retired too early because that’s a separate discussion.  
 

This is more about the way he handled it.  He screwed the whole team by leaving at the time that he did.  He should have made that decision in the off-season, but he wasn’t thinking about anybody but himself.  
 

The fans in Lucas Oil Stadium had every right to boo him off the field.  

[Kiwibrown]

The browns have select2d 3 qbs busts at 22 in the past 15 years. 

 

2007 Brady Quinn- had everything you want in a qb  athletic, strong, big, work ethic. He just missed one thing- whatever he was throwing at, his accuracy was worse than Derek Andersons- Derek Anderson's biggest weakness as a qb was accuracy. 

 

2012 Brandon weeden- prolific passer in college. He had a hell of an arm, but was flawed in many ways as a qb, he had terrible footwork, couldn't throw under pressure at all, he really got scared when the heat was on. He also couldn't move very well as a low grade athlete. 

 

2014 Johnny football. had a lot of talent, he could throw the ball with zip and accuracy. Johnny just didnt care about football off the field.  Or another way to look at it he had mental health and substance abuse problems.

All three of those guys were fundamentally flawed as prospects and even if we were a good organization at the time they would have been busts.

[EvilenFroggen]

Yes.  See David Carr.

[SalvadorsDeli]

On 5/20/2021 at 9:09 PM, NeptunePenguins said:

I think Carr was in such a terrible situation early on in Houston that it likely did ruin his NFL starting career. To take the amount of hits he did and still be standing is a feat in itself. I am not sure if any QB would have fared well in that situation. Andrew Luck also came to mind, and while he did produce and lead his team to the playoffs several times, the protection he had was pretty awful, and I think led to the early retirement. He was ruined, but he also did produce some nice seasons. 

Carr is the guy who sticks out to me as a player who was genuinely 'ruined' by playing for a bad team because the amount of hits he took just completely changed the way he processed the game. By the time the Texans had built a more solid core around him, he was just a completely damaged player who was checking down at the first opportunity and could no longer play the position effectively. That's a different thing to me than players who maybe just never had a 'fair' shot because they never had X receiver or Y head coach or whatever. Tim Couch I think is a similar story though I didn't watch him as closely so I can't really say for sure.