Spartacus Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 13 minutes ago, lancerman said: Even the Butler example is totally devoid of context. For one Brady orchestrated what was at the time the biggest comeback in Super Bowl history (well a tie for it) and had one of the best statistical 4th quarters ever in a Super Bowl to regain the lead. Then the only reason the game was even in doubt was because the other QB made a ridiculous pass play that put them in position to score with very little time on the clock. I mean no offense but against the Cardinals and Giants the Packers scored 20 points. That was a below average game for their offense. 2014 the defense got like 6 turnovers for the Packers that the offense wasn't capitalizing on. And then the Packers didn't do much against the Falcons until what was basically garbage time at that point. It wasn't like Rodgers was lighting these teams up and the defense was hemoraging points. It's really overstating things looking only at the opponents score. The fact is Rodgers didn't deserve to win some of those. Although I agree that QBs are the most important position on the team you are really looking at Rodgers through a microscope while not doing the same for Brady. Last years superbowl is a perfect example: Bradys first 7 drives in that game ended in either a punt, interception, or one lone field goal. You think if this was Rodgers that his defense would have been able to hold Atlanta to 28 points? We basically already know since the Falcons vs Green Bay playoff and the Falcons vs Patriots superbowl played out pretty similar. In the second half the Patriots defense buckled down and allowed only 7 points. They allow any more points at all in the 3rd and 4th quarter we are talking about how Brady's poor first half lead directly to a superbowl loss. Simple fact of the matter is Brady and the Patriots defense stepped up in the 2nd half to win that game. If either one falters the Patriots lose. Football is the ultimate team game. In the regular season a HOF QB can get you to the playoffs every year but once your there you need all 3 phases of the game to win a superbowl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 18 minutes ago, Danger said: That's incredibly poor reasoning. If your defense holds the other team under 24 points, and you're a QB in the discussion for being one of the best ever, you should absolutely win if the other team only scores 24 or less. Aaron Rodgers has had 4 playoff games out of 17 where he's posted a passer rating under 80. You also like to say "Well Green Bay's defense is always bad" Pretty sure they held the opponents under 24 points plenty of times of the years if you go back and look at the scores. The Super Bowl they won against Pittsburgh? Only 25 points on their part. So it's not like the defense is the only thing to blame. Lets flip this on it's head. Aaron Rodgers has only won one game ever in the playoffswhere the opposing team has scored more than 28 points. Get to 29 points and it's basically game over. Aaron Rodgers can't win the shootouts. The success of the team is more dependent on the defense than Aaron Rodgers? See both ways it's poor logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 11 minutes ago, Danger said: That's incredibly poor reasoning. If your defense holds the other team under 24 points, and you're a QB in the discussion for being one of the best ever, you should absolutely win if the other team only scores 24 or less. Aaron Rodgers has had 4 playoff games out of 17 where he's posted a passer rating under 80. You also like to say "Well Green Bay's defense is always bad" Pretty sure they held the opponents under 24 points plenty of times of the years if you go back and look at the scores. The Super Bowl they won against Pittsburgh? Only 25 points on their part. So it's not like the defense is the only thing to blame. As for the "GOAT" thing. He never said "there's no other QB playing right now I would rather have than Aaron Rodgers." He just said it flat out in a thread that is comparing Rodgers to QB's past and present, so it was pretty heavily implied. If he didn't mean to imply it then he had a very poor choice of phrasing. Brady has had multiple playoff losses in recent memory where his team held the other team to 21 and 20 respectively. I think most would agree that he is the GOAT. In the playoffs your not always going to have great games it happens. The year they won the superbowl surprise surprise there defense was top 10. The only year in Aaron Rodgers career with a top 10 defense. Brady has had multiple top 10 defenses and rarely has a defense worse than top 12 in PPG his entire career. In fact Brady has only had two years with a average to below average defense his entire career. In one, they lost the superbowl with the 15 ranked defense but allowed at most 21 points through the playoffs. The other year they lost in the divisional round and ranked 17th. Brady has had 12 top 10 defenses in ppg over his career. Rodgers? 1. I assume if you look at the average points scored from opponents in the playoffs you will see a similar trend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 6 minutes ago, Danger said: Lets flip this on it's head. Aaron Rodgers has only won one game ever in the playoffswhere the opposing team has scored more than 28 points. Get to 29 points and it's basically game over. Aaron Rodgers can't win the shootouts. The success of the team is more dependent on the defense than Aaron Rodgers? See both ways it's poor logic. It depends, have you compared this to any other QB in the playoffs? You would also have to take a look at the defenses faced. I assume with almost all QBs if not all you will see very few percentage of wins if the opposing team scores more than 28 points. FYI I don't think Rodgers is GOAT that is definitely Brady I just disagree with "QB Playoff Wins" as a major point when comparing QBs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 Just now, Spartacus said: It depends, have you compared this to any other QB in the playoffs? I assume with almost all you will see very few wins if the opposing team scores more than 28 points. FYI I don't think Rodgers is GOAT that is definitely Brady I just disagree with "QB Playoff Wins" as a major point when comparing QBs. As unfair as it may seem, the whole premise of winning falls more on the Quarterback's shoulders than any other position because they are the team leader. Yes even if the defense is at fault. It's like a business, if Apple stocks are falling, Apple is going to turn to it's leaders to say "why is this happening? you need to right the ship." They don't turn to the guys that work under him. You can say a QB is just one player, but he is very much the one at the helm of a football team aside from the HC. My analogy isn't the greatest, but I don't have the time available right now to come up with a better one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 3 minutes ago, Danger said: As unfair as it may seem, the whole premise of winning falls more on the Quarterback's shoulders than any other position because they are the team leader. Yes even if the defense is at fault. It's like a business, if Apple stocks are falling, Apple is going to turn to it's leaders to say "why is this happening? you need to right the ship." They don't turn to the guys that work under him. You can say a QB is just one player, but he is very much the one at the helm of a football team aside from the HC. My analogy isn't the greatest, but I don't have the time available right now to come up with a better one. I don't disagree with your general premise. I just don't weight nearly as much importance to rings or playoff wins. In fact I would say its about the last think I would look at when comparing two similar players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pollino14 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 7 hours ago, Danger said: If there's one position where using Super Bowls is really NOT laughable. It's Quarterback. Your job is to lead your team above all else. If you can't lead them to success, then you're not successfully doing your job. No, Super Bowl's aren't the ONLY aspect to judge a Quarterback on, but they are a big factor. The only thing that's laughable here is your homerism if you truly think Aaron Rodgers is THE GOAT. Lol , what a very simplistic and misguided way to look at things. There are multiple things that need to go right to win a SB, not just good QB play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 Just now, pollino14 said: Lol , what a very simplistic and misguided way to look at things. There are multiple things that need to go right to win a SB, not just good QB play. Even if you completely discount team success as a metric, Aaron Rodgers is still not the best QB of all time, or even right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Smithers Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 People who think Rodgers is all arm talent and athleticism and who doesn't have an elite grasp of the mental side are delusional. You don't be best QB just by your physical talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 1 hour ago, pollino14 said: Lol , what a very simplistic and misguided way to look at things. There are multiple things that need to go right to win a SB, not just good QB play. Throughout history QB play is the most consistently seen factor however. You really need a historically significant defense to win without great QB play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 30 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said: People who think Rodgers is all arm talent and athleticism and who doesn't have an elite grasp of the mental side are delusional. You don't be best QB just by your physical talent. 1. He's not the best. 2. He does have a grasp on the mental side but I'd put Brady/Beees/Manning a tier ahead of him. And that's just among guys he played amongst. Athleticism is his differentiator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp6488 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 19 hours ago, incognito_man said: well yeah, he won't lead in volume stats because he sat for 3 years and has missed time w/ injuries so far. Brady isn't going to lead any major categories either. Uhhhh.... Brady is currently the all-time QB leader in games won. He is currently #4 in passing yards: Manning (71,940), Favre (71,838), Brees (67,763), Brady (63,790). He could easily be in the top-2 or 3, or even 1, on that list depending on how much longer he decides to play. Also #4 in passing TD: Manning (539), Favre (508), Brees (476), Brady (471). Same story as passing yards. On efficiency, he's #3: Rodgers (104.1), Wilson (99.3), Brady (97.5). If those guys have a decline phase that Brady appears to have completely avoided, he could end up as the leader there. Even still, he's got a REALLY respectable position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Smithers Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 1 hour ago, lancerman said: 1. He's not the best. 2. He does have a grasp on the mental side but I'd put Brady/Beees/Manning a tier ahead of him. And that's just among guys he played amongst. Athleticism is his differentiator. Listen whether you think he is the best he has a very compelling argument. For the sake of argument let's say he is. In what sense, what makes those guys noticeably better in that aspect? It's easy to overlook his mental side because he's so flashy and plays a entertaining brand of QBing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TecmoSuperJoe Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 In the same group as these guys. I don't do numbered rankings. There are just too many variables. But as far as talent and legacy go, I think Rodgers is clearly among the best that has ever played. Rodgers Montana Brees Fouts Moon Favre Young Tarkenton Rivers Marino Kelly Unitas Staubach Dawson Unitas Brady Peyton Manning Roethlisberger Elway Aikman If you could make a team of all time players and coaching staff, you could go with any one of these guys as your starter and be in good hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malik Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 Most talented QB to the play the game outside of say Steve Young maybe. (in a vacuum) It's still astonishing that a QB as great as him has only gone to 1 Super Bowl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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