MVP leaders at this point.

[biggbrd]

42 minutes ago, tonyto36 said:

Based on what?  He has the best running game in the league, a great offensive supporting cast, and as soon as his defense stopped dominating, they lost.  I don't think he's even the MVP on his own team.  He was the MVP frontrunner until the Chiefs dropped 2 in a row and fell back to the pack.  

I have Brady comfortably ahead of him.  He has similar statistical production, has had a worse supporting cast through 7 games, single handedly carried the team through a couple games, had a couple come backs, dealt with crucial injuries on offense/rotating door of pass catchers, and is asked to do way way way more.

 

Also, there is a thread on this in the comparisons forum already.

How do you qualify the best running game? There are other teams with more rushing yards, more rushing TDs and fewer fumbles than the Chiefs.

 

Smith has been more efficient and has turned the ball over less. The stats are similar, but Brady's aren't quite as good. The record is the same, and the Chiefs beat the Pats head to head. I do agree that the Chiefs' D has been better. I don't think the revolving door of pass catchers is really that much different to any other season. He has also benefited from having two fantastic weapons in Cooks and Gronk, as well as an otherwise solid supporting cast on O. I don't know most of the Chiefs' O players that well, but looking at them briefly, I would take the Pats' O.

 

I personally don't think that Alex Smith will keep up this level of play for the whole season, and expect that Brady will likely win if he continues at a similar rate (which seems more plausible than Smith doing the same) and the Pats get HFA over the Chiefs. However if the award were handed out now, I think it should go to Smith. He has superior statistical production, an identical record and a head to head win vs the Patriots. Here's hoping the Chiefs lose a few more and the Pats don't to make this a bit more of a moot point.

[KManX89]

8 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

Yeah right now it is easily Alex Smith. Leads in every important QB stat. The only thing that would cost him being a unanimous choice at this point is his name.

This.

[Forge]

1 hour ago, tonyto36 said:

Based on what?  He has the best running game in the league, a great offensive supporting cast, and as soon as his defense stopped dominating, they lost.  I don't think he's even the MVP on his own team.  He was the MVP frontrunner until the Chiefs dropped 2 in a row and fell back to the pack.  

I have Brady comfortably ahead of him.  He has similar statistical production, has had a worse supporting cast through 7 games, single handedly carried the team through a couple games, had a couple come backs, dealt with crucial injuries on offense/rotating door of pass catchers, and is asked to do way way way more.

 

Also, there is a thread on this in the comparisons forum already.

I usually don't like responding to posts that are considerably slanted in one favor and utilize a subject opinion for much of it. My favorite part of your post is how you posit that the Chief's supporting cast is so much better than what New England is working with and you mention the roadbumps Brady has endured without so much as glancing over Smith's. I mean, are you seriously going to argue that Brady is at a disadvantage because he only has the likes of Dion Lewis, Rob Gronkowski, Chris Hogan, Brandin Cooks, Danny Amendola, James White, and Mike Gillislee and Rex Burkhead to play with? I mean, that's a tragedy.  Smith has Kelce, Hill and Hunt...which is great at the top. But then you get to the likes of Albert Wilson and Charcandrick West and the receiving corps is certainly not great. Gronk has missed one game, so let's not act like he's been out the season. Cooks and Hogan haven't missed a game. Amendola has missed one game. These are not major hurdles - they are things that can be expected to happen throughout the season. Neither of these guys gets to play the martyr in this regard. There's not enough of a difference in their cast to warrant an advantage for either side. Neither side has a great offensive line either, so that can't be claimed. 

 Also, The only thing the chief's are number one in with regards to rushing is yards per carry.  They are second in rushing yards (well behind #1 Jacksonville), and only about 60 yards higher than the 8th place team in Baltimore, so it's not like they are well above the pack. They are second in DVOA. Oh, and Smith actually contributes to that, unlike Brady. So it's considerably unfair to just say that Smith has the best run game, because depending on what statistic you use, it's not true, and number 2, you've completely failed to acknowledge Smith's role in that. If you take out Smith and Brady's rushing yards, the Chiefs have rushed for less than 50 more yards than the Pats, so it's not that unbalanced with regards to their offensive production. Yes, they are considerably more efficient than the Pats in the run game, however. 

All of your other claims are subjective, and highly dubious at best. Smith has a better supporting cast? Based on what? The pats have faced injuries to the pass catchers, but Smith has lost Conley, has a rotating offensive line that has started such luminaries as Cam Erving and Jordan Devey, the defense has been  banged up,  but let's not mention the things that Smith has had to endure because then that wouldn't fit the narrative. Both of these guys have had to suffer through some typically expected NFL happenings. Neither of them are the Ravens offensive line, so let's move on from that. 

 Brady "had a couple of come backs". This amuses me as it somehow insinuates that being behind and having to come back is innately better than just taking the lead and being ahead or tied for most of the game. Brady has dealt with crucial injuries - already covered this. Also, to suggest the that Brady is asked to do "way way more" is completely subjective and has no foundation to stand on at the current point in time. You have no idea what Smith is asked to do. Also, why is the timing of the Chief's losses more important than the timing of the Patriots losses? So far as I know, they have the same 5-2 record...and oh yeah, the Chief's thumped them head to head, and their one common opponent, Houston, was a far more impressive win for the Chief's than it was for the Pats (though the Texans obviously had some injuries in that game). Yet somehow, the Chief's two recent losses holds more weight then Brady's and the Pats?  

And while their statistics are similar, Smith's are still better. He has a better completion percentage, higher YPA, higher rating, the same amount of passing touchdowns with one additional rushing touchdown, fewer interceptions

While I don't think that Smith keeps up what he is doing all year,  he has so far. And what he has done so far has been at the very least on par with Brady, and I think a lot of people would argue better. But by all means, have Brady "comfortably ahead" of Smith. I'm sure that nobody will see that there may be a slightly bias. 

1 hour ago, tonyto36 said:

Instead of trolling, how about you refute anything I said.

Anything?

There you go. Now I'm done with this one, because I typically don't like these conversations where I'm dealing with someone talking about his team. It makes for messy conversation that largely goes nowhere. 

[biggbrd]

8 minutes ago, Forge said:

A very good post with lots of meaningful discussion

Just thought I would post to say I love the avatar. Haven't watched Hellsing in ages. Hellsing Ultimate was the bees knees, Alucard is such a badass.

 

Anywho, carry on all.

[El Ramster]

1 minute ago, biggbrd said:

Just thought I would post to say I love the avatar. Haven't watched Hellsing in ages. Hellsing Ultimate was the bees knees, Alucard is such a badass.

 

Anywho, carry on all.

[biggbrd]

You could use italics instead of SHOUTING, you know.

[Hunter2_1]

KC have a better running game and defense, by far.

NE have a better offense in general, in terms of the skill positions 

OL is a wash, both have good coaching, Brady is definitely asked to do more with our offensive structure (more reads, more route concepts etc) 

Giving it to Smith out of the two because I think the Chiefs are better than us, currently, and Smith is driving it. 

 

[Thomas5737]

1 hour ago, tonyto36 said:

So your argument is...

Honestly the only argument a Smith supporter needs to make right now is that he has been better. Brady supporters can add all of the variables they want and maybe they make some good points but none of it will really matter if Smith continues to be this much better.

Is Brady better than Smith as a player? Of course, He is better than Matt Ryan and Cam Newton too, they still won MVPs. It feels like a Brady vs. Peyton thread finding any and everything to help the case of one side. It isn't needed for a single season perspective. One guy has been considerably better no matter the circumstances, and that is who the MVP should go to.

[DontTazeMeBro]

Alex Smith shouldn't even be MVP of his own team. Or runner up.

 I guess Kareem Hunt. 8 20+ yard runs(next closest only has 4). 5.8 a pop. It's hard for me to argue against that 

If we don't subscribe to this being the QB/RB of the Year on a Super Bowl Contender Award I'd throw Calais Campbell's name out there. His addition has really propelled them to being possibly the best defense in the league

[ILoveTheVikings]

11 hours ago, BAConrad said:

So......??

 

Wentz is also averaging roughly 2 more yards / air attempt than Cam, while throwing it over 100 times more as well in 6 games so far.  Wentz has 13/3..Cam 9/8. 

(Btw I didn't even include Newtons stats after today's game lol)

Wentz, just as I've heard Steve Young,  Bradshaw, Jaws, and a bunch of other former great QBs say, being so successful in 3rd and long situations is a sign of how great he is becoming. Not a surprise he's 1st and Brady/Rodgers(respec) were 2 and 3 coming into this weekend. 

He's leading the league's best offense, on the team with the best record (even if we lose to Wash knock on wood), putting up elite stats while also making huge plays.

At this point there's , almost no valid argument for putting anyone but Wentz at 1. 

 

 

I take it you haven't paid attention to Alex Smitch?

http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/8416/alex-smith

http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/2573079/carson-wentz

 

Wentz isn't even close to Smith right now. He may be a top 5 candidate, but he isn't playing in the same universe as Smith

[ILoveTheVikings]

3 hours ago, El ramster said:

Alex is trash. Kc ain't a threat with him and he'll be a journey man QB next season..

 

Neat. Too bad MVP is based on this year and this year only.

[Jakuvious]

2 hours ago, tonyto36 said:

A lot of misleading things about Brady's vs. Smith's supporting casts.

A few things here that need to be said if this is going to become the argument. Smith has had some substantial hits to his supporting cast throughout the season. Conley is currently on IR. He was the #2. Albert Wilson, the #3, missed time. Travis Kelce missed half a game. Hill missed the end of one of our losses. In our final drive attempt against Pittburgh, KC had Demarcus Robinson (started the season as the #4 WR), DeAnthony Thomas (started the season as the #5 WR), and Marcus Kemp (fresh off the PS) as their only WRs.

That's just the receivers. Our interior OL has been in shambles are year. Bryan Witzman, Cameron Erving, Zach Fulton, and Jordan Devey have all seen starts due to injuries to Parker Ehinger (starting LG), Mitch Morse (starting C), and Laurent Duvernay-Tardiff (starting RG.) This has directly led to quite a few problems. They were all abused against Pittsburgh. We've had at least two really bad missed snaps. Etc.

Smith has not been playing with a full deck on offense. He's been making the supporting cast look a heck of a lot better than it has been some weeks.

Additionally, I've seen two Patriots fans say something to the effect of the Chiefs defense being dominant or being better by far or by a substantial margin, than the Pats. It hasn't been. It sucks to say, but our defense has played horribly most of the season. The gap between the Pats and Chiefs in terms of points allowed is just 5 points. The Chiefs have allowed 23 points per game. The Pats 23.7. In the last 6 games (so games not played against Brady/Smith directly) the Pats have allowed fewer points per game than the Chiefs. The only thing making the Pats defense look worse than KC's at this point is the fact that Smith did better against the Pats D than Brady did against the Chiefs D. This is not the Chiefs defense of the past 3 years or so.

You say you watch all the games, but you then completely omit KC's substantial health problems on offense and greatly misrepresent the performance of the Chiefs defense.

Oh, also, Smith has done it against a harder SoS so far.

Also has more game winning drives, so that's a thing too.

[Jakuvious]

39 minutes ago, tonyto36 said:

So you very conveniently just brush everything I said under the rug with the "it's misleading" label because you disagree?

 

You said yourself that you omitted things. Your words. That's why what you posted is misleading. Along with your misrepresentation of the Chiefs defense as better "by a wide margin" which is just blatantly inaccurate. I don't need to refute or restate the things you said about the Pats injuries or defense. Those things are actually accurate. But by omitting the similar problems for KC, you suggest that those things apply to Brady, and not Smith, and form an argument for Brady being the MVP over Smith. That is misrepresentation. I'm not refuting your points on the Brady side. I'm pointing out that those things are all clearly relevant for Smith as well, while you're talking as though they are not.

And your newest post is riddled with more inaccuracies. You clearly do not know much about how the Chiefs and Smith have performed this season. It is obvious from the majority of what you post. So stop saying definitive things about how healthy the Chiefs are or how lucky Smith is or how unclutch he has been. These things are not true, and it's exhausting to point them out and have you ignore it. For instance:

45 minutes ago, tonyto36 said:

 The Patriots defense was giving up massive 40 yard chunk plays on broken coverages, and leaving entire sides of the field completely open for walk in touchdowns because of miscommunications/Gilmore.   In those games the Patriots managed to pull out a couple wins because Brady carried them there. 

Chiefs defense and secondary have had the same problem. See: Texans. See: Raiders. Heck, see: Patriots. Smith has had to repeatedly score to regain or maintain the lead because our secondary crumples when attacked and Sutton has been far too conservative with the pass rush. Against Houston he had to ice the game like 3 times. Smith has been asked repeatedly to carry the team. And succeeded. Pittsburgh was the lone failure. But as I've said, there were some mitigating circumstances on that final drive that really hurt the chances. 3 linemen down and 3 receivers down is tough to deal with against one of the best defenses in the NFL this year.

 

49 minutes ago, tonyto36 said:

More game winning drives?  Like what?

It's actually a tracked stat. Smith has 3. Brady has 1. Houston is the only one for Brady. All their other wins, they entered the 4th quarter ahead and it never faltered.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2017/passing.htm

[Forge]

Quote

Yes and Gronk, Hogan, Amendola, Burkhead also missed time, with Edelman and Mitchell - two of his projected top receivers out before the season started.  There was a point in the Saints game Hogan should have come out due to injury but had to play because the Patriots literally did not have enough receivers to field an offense if he didn't take place holder snaps.    When the Patriots offense is healthy, they're better than the Chiefs.  That was not my argument.  The difference is Brady has had guys in and out of the lineup the entire season and hasn't skipped a beat.   Just because a player did not miss a game [like Hogan] does not mean he was healthy or a legitimate target.  You have to watch the games.  CONTEXT MATTERS

Wilson got hurt in the chargers game, I believe, with a leg injury. Kelce suffered a concussion one game and came out. Tyreke Hill got blasted against the Raiders and had to come out.  Conley is done for the year. Smith hasn't skipped a beat. Context matters. You brought this up in favor of Brady but ignored what Smith has dealt with. I'm not even proclaiming Smith had it harder, but you're making it seem like Smith hasn't endured anything. They've both suffered bumps and bruises....It should not be something that is used to artificially prop up one guy over the other. 

Quote

So your argument is that the Chiefs lead the league in YPA, second in total yards, second in total DVOA, and that some how is an argument that proves they aren't an elite rushing team? 

You didn't say elite. You said the best. If you had said elite to begin with, I wouldn't have disagreed. Stop moving the goalpost. Their run game has been elite from an efficiency standpoint. They aren't using it as much as they should, though (which could suggest they are putting more on Smith than they have to, FWIW) so it's not as big of a factor as one would think. If you take out the respective running yards for each quarterback, KC has outgained NE on the ground by like 30 yards (and you should, since you aren't crediting Smith for the work he does on the ground). They have just done it more efficiently. It matters, , for sure. I'm not going to say that Smith isn't working with a better run game because he very clearly is. This is certainly an advantage he has. 

 

Quote

Teams  go into Chiefs games primarily to stop Hunt, not Alex Smith.   Even if the Patriots had more yardage than the Chiefs, that does not take into context and what defenses are doing.  The Chiefs go into games with defenses gearing up to stop the run and still dominate in the run game.  The Patriots are completely incapable of doing that.  

Provide evidence and proof of this, or admit that it's your own opinion and move on. I'm thinking that you are not privy to the gameplanning of the Chief's opponents. 

 

8 hours ago, tonyto36 said:

The receivers has been a wash - once/if the Patriots are ever completely healthy the Patriots have the edge.  The OL has been a wash.   The defense through 7 weeks has obviously been in favor of the Chiefs by a wide margin.  The end product of the season/what they're doing now is one thing but it's obvious which QB has had a defense help him out more through 7 weeks and it's not close.

 

FO ranks the patriots pass protection as 16th best in the NFL. The Chiefs are 26th. I'm calling that a wash, but I've seen you allude to the possibility that the Chiefs have the better o-line a couple of times, which is a reach. If anything, Smith has the disadvantage here. There are some other offensive line metrics out there that I do not have access to, which may suggest the other way around, which is why I'm calling this a wash. 

Quote

Yes I do, because I watch all the games.  Are you honestly trying to argue Alex Smith is asked to do as much as Tom Brady is?   

I'm saying that you really have no idea what Smith is being tasked to do. The two teams have a 1% differential in pass play percentage, and Smith takes on some designed runs. So the Chief's are putting the game in Smith's hands just as much as the Pats are Brady for the most part. And so far this year, Smith has pretty much done as much as Brady, regardless of whether or not he's "asked" to. 

Quote

The timing of the losses is relevant because I specifically stated I had Alex Smith ahead of Brady because his record/head to head matchup was a clear advantage in his favor.  He has RECENTLY LOST and come back to the pack (EXACTLY LIKE I ALREADY SAID) which means he CURRENTLY (meaning RECENTLY and the TIMING IS RELEVANT) does not have that edge any more and Brady should be ahead of him. 

This doesn't make any sense, but I could be having a hard time understanding you. The teams have the same record and the Chiefs won head to head, on the road, in a game in which Smith significantly outplayed Brady. The advantage for this should still be with Smith with regards to the teams, though I'm not a huge fan of this with regards to something like the MVP. As long as your team isn't bad, I don't think that there should be any difference between a one team going 12-4 and another 11-5 that it should play a factor in the voting. But that's just my opinion. 

 

Quote

 

The summation of your counter argument is this.

1.  The Chiefs lead the league in YPA, second in yards, second in DVOA, but don't have an elite rushing game that is massively beneficial for Alex Smith.

2.  The Chiefs have a worse OL than the Patriots

3.  The Patriots, who have had all their skill players in and out of the lineup to injury and were at one point down to Cooks, our blocking TE, a one legged Hogan, and James White, are still better off than the Chiefs.

4.  Somehow reading a sentence I wrote, but ignoring the second half of it because you wanted to create a false narrative.

5.  Alex Smith is trusted/asked to do as much as Tom Brady

 

The summation of your entire argument seems to be, "let me find as many arbitrary, and largely subjective variables to prop my guy up on to make him look as good as possible while ignoring the other side or create as many arguments riddled with inaccuracies and misrepresentations as possible". You say that others are ignoring your side, but you're already making that point - we aren't arguing that Brady hasn't dealt with issues. We don't need to re-iterate the points that you've already made - we are saying that you are one sided and introducing you to the other side of that. 

Look, you can have Brady as your MVP, I really don't care and I wouldn't expect it any other way. He certainly should be in the top 3. To say that he's "comfortably ahead" of Smith seems misguided to me, but to each their own. 

[MacReady]

Remember that one year where there were literal idiots who were saying Peyton Manning should win MVP because the Colts sucked since he wasn't playing?  Aaron Rodgers is the MVP this season.