Raiders sign LB Darron Lee and CB De’Vante Bausby

[NCOUGHMAN]

1 hour ago, Humble_Beast said:

At least Ruggs flashed as a rookie, hopefully he put in work on his routes and getting bigger without losing speed. I wish we double dipped on wideouts with Jefferson/Shenault to compliment Ruggs with, but Edwards might end up being a steal. It's going be interesting to see how the WR unit shakes out. 

I was about to say you were one of the few who got the hr3 pick correct and he was the guy you wanted

[Mr Raider]

4 hours ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

🎯🎯

why draft him so high if you know he’s not gonna ever be your #1 wr you can always find short fast guys later In the draft. You use those premium picks on sure fire battle tested studs. Same for rbs 🤦🏽‍♂️

I don't agree with the concept that Ruggs can't be, or was drafted at the time or currently with them already conceding that he can't be our number one WR. Ruggs isn't short per say, and even still saying you shouldn't draft a shorter, fast WR in the first discounts all the talented WRs that were Ruggs size or smaller that were/are absolutely number 1 WRs. Guys like Marvin Harrison, Steve Smith, Torry Holt, Tim Brown, Desean Jackson, Tyreke Hill, Antonio Brown, Greg Jennings, Emmanuel Sanders, TY Hilton, Santana Moss, Odell Beckham Jr, and on and on the further you go back in history. Every single one of those guys is shorter and lighter, or within an inch and 5-10 pounds of Henry Ruggs 5'11" 190 pound self. 

Now go look back and see how many of those guys were super productive in year one. Steve Smith didn't crack 900 yards until year 3. Torry Holt was solid but unspectacular as a rookie (750 yards). Marvin Harrison didn't break out or top 900 yards or preform like his well known all pro self until year 4. Jackson wasn't a 1000 receiver year one. Tim Brown didn't see more than 725 yards in a season until year 6. Hill was seen as having a solid rookie year when he put up 500ish yards year one and burst onto the scene after that. Antonio Brown was a nobody as a rookie that produced nothing, had a 1000 year year 2 and then dipped back down to 800 or so yards before busting out his historic 4 year run. Greg Jennings didn't become the #1 WR he was with Green Bay until year 3. Emmanuel Sanders didn't sniff 800 yards until year 5. TY Hilton didn't take off and become the #1 WR he has consistently been until year 2. Santana Moss was nowhere near a number one until year 3 or 4. OBJ was an exception to all of this. 

All of that to say, you can make the argument that Ruggs shouldn't have been drafted in the first because you can find guys that can produce at a #1 level in his mold size wise (very few ever have had his speed though and you don't fit that every day), but frankly that doesn't hold much water to me because you can say that about EVERY position and really the data suggests that 2nd round WRs in the past decade have been more productive WRs than 1st round guys regardless of size or speed. Perhaps because expectations aren't as high immediately and they aren't high picks usually going to teams with shaky at best QB play. 

I think it's entirely too early to write Ruggs off as being incapable of being a #1 WR simply because of his size and a quiet rookie year. Because history is littered with guys that were a similar size to Ruggs, took a year or multiple years to become that caliber of player, but still ultimately ended up as sure fire #1 WRs that have put up some of the most productive seasons for a wide out ever. Sure you can say those guys did this thing or that thing better than Ruggs as pros, but you have to look at what they were in those areas (and also what areas Ruggs may be superior) after their rookie season, not their peak abilities because we haven't seen Ruggs peak abilities yet. 

I can buy the argument Ruggs will never be the same type of #1 WR like Calvin Johnson, AJ Green, Hopkins, Adams, etc. Sure. That isn't his game. Does that mean he can't be a number 1 WR? Absolutely not. We can't write that off yet or pigeonhole him into only being capable of being a complimentary player strictly based off of his size and a less than great rookie season. History in the NFL directly tells us guys in the same mold have because exactly that after starting their careers similar to Ruggs rookie year (where he had no training camp, no preseason, and was injured literally week 1 or 2). Obviously it isn't a guarantee because it's a long shot any one player becomes one of the best at their position, and if he does he will win in a different way from those other type of WRs, but if he develops into a DeSean Jackson, TY Hilton, Greg Jackson or on the highest side a Marvin Harrison, Tim Brown, or Antonio Brown type of WR are we going to argue he isn't a number one? Or care he doesn't win like the bigger jump ball specialists? Obviously not. 

And we may not see Ruggs be afforded the opportunity to become the primary pass game option due to Darren Waller being around. That wouldn't even be a knock on Ruggs. It could actually be a huge win for us. Obviously Waller had his issues and got a late break himself on becoming the player he is, but were talking about a guy that has had some of the best production for a TE ever over the past 2 seasons that is still in his athletic prime. 

Most simply, I'm not writing Ruggs off specifically or his ability to become a #1 simply because he's 5'11" and didn't dominate as a rookie. We saw flashes, and he seems like a hard worker that is hungry. Lets see what he does with more than one rookie year in a unique situation before we definitively say what he can or cannot be. 

[NCOUGHMAN]

1 minute ago, Mr Raider said:

I don't agree with the concept that Ruggs can't be, or was drafted at the time or currently with them already conceding that he can't be our number one WR. Ruggs isn't short per say, and even still saying you shouldn't draft a shorter, fast WR in the first discounts all the talented WRs that were Ruggs size or smaller that were/are absolutely number 1 WRs. Guys like Marvin Harrison, Steve Smith, Torry Holt, Tim Brown, Desean Jackson, Tyreke Hill, Antonio Brown, Greg Jennings, Emmanuel Sanders, TY Hilton, Santana Moss, Odell Beckham Jr, and on and on the further you go back in history. Every single one of those guys is shorter and lighter, or within an inch and 5-10 pounds of Henry Ruggs 5'11" 190 pound self. 

Now go look back and see how many of those guys were super productive in year one. Steve Smith didn't crack 900 yards until year 3. Torry Holt was solid but unspectacular as a rookie (750 yards). Marvin Harrison didn't break out or top 900 yards or preform like his well known all pro self until year 4. Jackson wasn't a 1000 receiver year one. Tim Brown didn't see more than 725 yards in a season until year 6. Hill was seen as having a solid rookie year when he put up 500ish yards year one and burst onto the scene after that. Antonio Brown was a nobody as a rookie that produced nothing, had a 1000 year year 2 and then dipped back down to 800 or so yards before busting out his historic 4 year run. Greg Jennings didn't become the #1 WR he was with Green Bay until year 3. Emmanuel Sanders didn't sniff 800 yards until year 5. TY Hilton didn't take off and become the #1 WR he has consistently been until year 2. Santana Moss was nowhere near a number one until year 3 or 4. OBJ was an exception to all of this. 

All of that to say, you can make the argument that Ruggs shouldn't have been drafted in the first because you can find guys that can produce at a #1 level in his mold size wise (very few ever have had his speed though and you don't fit that every day), but frankly that doesn't hold much water to me because you can say that about EVERY position and really the data suggests that 2nd round WRs in the past decade have been more productive WRs than 1st round guys regardless of size or speed. Perhaps because expectations aren't as high immediately and they aren't high picks usually going to teams with shaky at best QB play. 

I think it's entirely too early to write Ruggs off as being incapable of being a #1 WR simply because of his size and a quiet rookie year. Because history is littered with guys that were a similar size to Ruggs, took a year or multiple years to become that caliber of player, but still ultimately ended up as sure fire #1 WRs that have put up some of the most productive seasons for a wide out ever. Sure you can say those guys did this thing or that thing better than Ruggs as pros, but you have to look at what they were in those areas (and also what areas Ruggs may be superior) after their rookie season, not their peak abilities because we haven't seen Ruggs peak abilities yet. 

I can buy the argument Ruggs will never be the same type of #1 WR like Calvin Johnson, AJ Green, Hopkins, Adams, etc. Sure. That isn't his game. Does that mean he can't be a number 1 WR? Absolutely not. We can't write that off yet or pigeonhole him into only being capable of being a complimentary player strictly based off of his size and a less than great rookie season. History in the NFL directly tells us guys in the same mold have because exactly that after starting their careers similar to Ruggs rookie year (where he had no training camp, no preseason, and was injured literally week 1 or 2). Obviously it isn't a guarantee because it's a long shot any one player becomes one of the best at their position, and if he does he will win in a different way from those other type of WRs, but if he develops into a DeSean Jackson, TY Hilton, Greg Jackson or on the highest side a Marvin Harrison, Tim Brown, or Antonio Brown type of WR are we going to argue he isn't a number one? Or care he doesn't win like the bigger jump ball specialists? Obviously not. 

And we may not see Ruggs be afforded the opportunity to become the primary pass game option due to Darren Waller being around. That wouldn't even be a knock on Ruggs. It could actually be a huge win for us. Obviously Waller had his issues and got a late break himself on becoming the player he is, but were talking about a guy that has had some of the best production for a TE ever over the past 2 seasons that is still in his athletic prime. 

Most simply, I'm not writing Ruggs off specifically or his ability to become a #1 simply because he's 5'11" and didn't dominate as a rookie. We saw flashes, and he seems like a hard worker that is hungry. Lets see what he does with more than one rookie year in a unique situation before we definitively say what he can or cannot be. 

Out of all the similar wrs you mentioned which were drafted within the last 10 years as a top 15 draft pick? 

[Humble_Beast]

17 hours ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

I was about to say you were one of the few who got the hr3 pick correct and he was the guy you wanted

I still think Ruggs is on the Tyreke Hill trajectory

[Mr Raider]

14 hours ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Out of all the similar wrs you mentioned which were drafted within the last 10 years as a top 15 draft pick? 

I touched on that in the original post... At this point, that fact is moot. We did draft him. You can argue the pick should have been on someone else, that's fine. I said he wouldn't have been my top choice. 

I was responding to the idea that he isn't capable of being a #1 because of his size. And to answer your question specifically OBJ, Tim Brown, Torry Holt, were top 15 picks. Santana Moss was the 16th pick, Marvin Harrison was the 19th pick. Jennings, Jackson, and Isaac Bruce were drafted in the top of the 2nd. 

So of the 12 guys I mentioned, half of them were drafted in the first 19 picks. 

[drfrey13]

20 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Let's see how he plays this year.

I hope it works out.  I am supporting him but I just do not get the reasoning the team uses sometimes.  I also try to keep in mind that the transition to the pros generally takes longer for WRs.

[drfrey13]

19 hours ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

🎯🎯

why draft him so high if you know he’s not gonna ever be your #1 wr you can always find short fast guys later In the draft. You use those premium picks on sure fire battle tested studs. Same for rbs 🤦🏽‍♂️

I agree but I am still hoping he becomes a #1.  I think Gruden and Mayock need to stop collecting sports cars and fix the garage.  Leatherwood hopefully lives up to his potential but we need to get some talent in the middle of the d-line.  A few of us have been saying this for years now.

[NCOUGHMAN]

1 hour ago, drfrey13 said:

I agree but I am still hoping he becomes a #1.  I think Gruden and Mayock need to stop collecting sports cars and fix the garage.  Leatherwood hopefully lives up to his potential but we need to get some talent in the middle of the d-line.  A few of us have been saying this for years now.

I’m thinking hr3 has more track speed than game speed. 
 

I wish we would stop tryna copy teams and just do it our way. 

[drfrey13]

1 hour ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

I’m thinking hr3 has more track speed than game speed. 
 

I wish we would stop tryna copy teams and just do it our way. 

I think his off-season injury and being a rookie played a part in his down year.  I also think his floor is around Agholor last year.  What he needs is to be able to connect with Carr.  Unfortunately think Brown was brought in as insurance which means he will have a short leash instead of the team committing to him and willing to support him thru any growing pains.

[drfrey13]

4 hours ago, Humble_Beast said:

I still think Ruggs is on the Tyreke Hill trajectory

He will have to change a lot to get to that level physically and mentally.  He has some of the needed characteristics but Hill is on another level.  When the ball is in the air Hill believes it is his ball no matter what.  He will go over thru or around you and he does not care if he is going to get hit.  Steve Smith is more like Hill.

[Humble_Beast]

Steve Smith and Hill both played nasty. They had that small man syndrome, Ruggs was just adjusting to the league. 

[MrOaktown_56]

6 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

I hope it works out.  I am supporting him but I just do not get the reasoning the team uses sometimes.  I also try to keep in mind that the transition to the pros generally takes longer for WRs.

Me neither. In the 1st round, the majority of the forum could do better IMO.

[NCOUGHMAN]

6 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

I think his off-season injury and being a rookie played a part in his down year.  I also think his floor is around Agholor last year.  What he needs is to be able to connect with Carr.  Unfortunately think Brown was brought in as insurance which means he will have a short leash instead of the team committing to him and willing to support him thru any growing pains.

I think he’s never been a #1 wr and now he’s being forced into that role imo he’s a excellent #2 or #3. Which is what I hate about us we draft guys then ask them to do something different than they did in college. 
 

leatherwood- lt and rg : guess what you’re a rt now

bowden- wr/qb : now your a rb

hr3- 50catch/year guy : we need about 90 catches now buddy

jacobs- great #2 or #3 rb: you’re a #1 bell cow

it gets old

[drfrey13]

3 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Me neither. In the 1st round, the majority of the forum could do better IMO.

 

26 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

I think he’s never been a #1 wr and now he’s being forced into that role imo he’s a excellent #2 or #3. Which is what I hate about us we draft guys then ask them to do something different than they did in college. 
 

leatherwood- lt and rg : guess what you’re a rt now

bowden- wr/qb : now your a rb

hr3- 50catch/year guy : we need about 90 catches now buddy

jacobs- great #2 or #3 rb: you’re a #1 bell cow

it gets old

I said a couple years ago I could take people from Footballs Future forums and run the team better than it has been.  Not saying coaching but front office types. I had a lot of people here tell me I was crazy.  This team has screwed up so many times for so long I think just getting lucky we could do better.  You could give me the generally excepted top ten draft prospects from internet experts at each pick we have had and I could pick out of a hat with a higher success rate.  We either select busts or overdraft with just about every pick.  The majority of players we select that live up to their draft position are usually taken in the 4th and 5th rounds with occasional 6th and 7th rounders.  I would say trade away picks but we would just give the picks to the Steelers for a WR that will not produce for us.  Feel free to add more but 2 rules are do not sign Patriot FAs, unless it is the GOAT, and do not trade with Pittsburgh.

[Darbsk]

15 hours ago, Humble_Beast said:

I still think Ruggs is on the Tyreke Hill trajectory

I think that's a tad too optimistic. Obviously he still has time to grow and mature but seeing his skills in contact, lack of physicality and apparent aversion to taking hits I could see career trajectory similar to our own John 'Smoke' Brown. A couple statistically good years, a few years with injury issues and never really though of as a legit WR1. That doesn't mean he couldn't be a very important part of the offence but IMO he and Hill are nowhere near alike style wise and I don't think he'll be as good all round or as productive (targets, catches) as Hill because of that.