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19 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

I agree but I am still hoping he becomes a #1.  I think Gruden and Mayock need to stop collecting sports cars and fix the garage.  Leatherwood hopefully lives up to his potential but we need to get some talent in the middle of the d-line.  A few of us have been saying this for years now.

I have been saying this for over 20 years and we continue to get retread, castoff trash and spend very little draft capital to address this issue. I have been saying that an impact 3T will do the most for this D overall if we were to upgrade one position and we continue to neglect it.  It's truly mind boggling....  We have been the worst D of the last decade for a reason, which is reenforcement that we do a lot of things that are mind boggling.  

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On 6/28/2021 at 7:31 PM, Mr Raider said:

I don't agree with the concept that Ruggs can't be, or was drafted at the time or currently with them already conceding that he can't be our number one WR. Ruggs isn't short per say, and even still saying you shouldn't draft a shorter, fast WR in the first discounts all the talented WRs that were Ruggs size or smaller that were/are absolutely number 1 WRs. Guys like Marvin Harrison, Steve Smith, Torry Holt, Tim Brown, Desean Jackson, Tyreke Hill, Antonio Brown, Greg Jennings, Emmanuel Sanders, TY Hilton, Santana Moss, Odell Beckham Jr, and on and on the further you go back in history. Every single one of those guys is shorter and lighter, or within an inch and 5-10 pounds of Henry Ruggs 5'11" 190 pound self. 

Now go look back and see how many of those guys were super productive in year one. Steve Smith didn't crack 900 yards until year 3. Torry Holt was solid but unspectacular as a rookie (750 yards). Marvin Harrison didn't break out or top 900 yards or preform like his well known all pro self until year 4. Jackson wasn't a 1000 receiver year one. Tim Brown didn't see more than 725 yards in a season until year 6. Hill was seen as having a solid rookie year when he put up 500ish yards year one and burst onto the scene after that. Antonio Brown was a nobody as a rookie that produced nothing, had a 1000 year year 2 and then dipped back down to 800 or so yards before busting out his historic 4 year run. Greg Jennings didn't become the #1 WR he was with Green Bay until year 3. Emmanuel Sanders didn't sniff 800 yards until year 5. TY Hilton didn't take off and become the #1 WR he has consistently been until year 2. Santana Moss was nowhere near a number one until year 3 or 4. OBJ was an exception to all of this. 

All of that to say, you can make the argument that Ruggs shouldn't have been drafted in the first because you can find guys that can produce at a #1 level in his mold size wise (very few ever have had his speed though and you don't fit that every day), but frankly that doesn't hold much water to me because you can say that about EVERY position and really the data suggests that 2nd round WRs in the past decade have been more productive WRs than 1st round guys regardless of size or speed. Perhaps because expectations aren't as high immediately and they aren't high picks usually going to teams with shaky at best QB play. 

I think it's entirely too early to write Ruggs off as being incapable of being a #1 WR simply because of his size and a quiet rookie year. Because history is littered with guys that were a similar size to Ruggs, took a year or multiple years to become that caliber of player, but still ultimately ended up as sure fire #1 WRs that have put up some of the most productive seasons for a wide out ever. Sure you can say those guys did this thing or that thing better than Ruggs as pros, but you have to look at what they were in those areas (and also what areas Ruggs may be superior) after their rookie season, not their peak abilities because we haven't seen Ruggs peak abilities yet. 

I can buy the argument Ruggs will never be the same type of #1 WR like Calvin Johnson, AJ Green, Hopkins, Adams, etc. Sure. That isn't his game. Does that mean he can't be a number 1 WR? Absolutely not. We can't write that off yet or pigeonhole him into only being capable of being a complimentary player strictly based off of his size and a less than great rookie season. History in the NFL directly tells us guys in the same mold have because exactly that after starting their careers similar to Ruggs rookie year (where he had no training camp, no preseason, and was injured literally week 1 or 2). Obviously it isn't a guarantee because it's a long shot any one player becomes one of the best at their position, and if he does he will win in a different way from those other type of WRs, but if he develops into a DeSean Jackson, TY Hilton, Greg Jackson or on the highest side a Marvin Harrison, Tim Brown, or Antonio Brown type of WR are we going to argue he isn't a number one? Or care he doesn't win like the bigger jump ball specialists? Obviously not. 

And we may not see Ruggs be afforded the opportunity to become the primary pass game option due to Darren Waller being around. That wouldn't even be a knock on Ruggs. It could actually be a huge win for us. Obviously Waller had his issues and got a late break himself on becoming the player he is, but were talking about a guy that has had some of the best production for a TE ever over the past 2 seasons that is still in his athletic prime. 

Most simply, I'm not writing Ruggs off specifically or his ability to become a #1 simply because he's 5'11" and didn't dominate as a rookie. We saw flashes, and he seems like a hard worker that is hungry. Lets see what he does with more than one rookie year in a unique situation before we definitively say what he can or cannot be. 

I like Ruggs the player as he adds a dynamic piece to an O that has lacked talent and been stale for many years.  I don't like where Ruggs was drafted, as I have always been in the camp that if you take a WR in the top 15 that WR better be in the mold of Julio Jones/ Megatron which Ruggs is not.  

While I agree that Ruggs has number 1 potential the route for him to get there is much more narrow than a big, tall, physical, large catch radius WR like Julio or Tron.  How can Ruggs become a number 1 WR?  He will have to put in the time and become a route running technician like AB which is far more difficult than players like Julio and Tron who dominate because they are bigger, stronger and more physically gifted than the players who are trying to shut them down.   

Ruggs has speed and tons of it but we have all seen WR's drafted high before that have tons of speed that never pan out.  Ruggs will be as good as he wants to be but to be a number 1, in the mold of AB, he will have to work extremely hard at becoming a route running technician.  

If we use him strictly as a straight line threat, as we did with NA last season, he will provide value but will never live up to his draft status and will never become that true number 1 that we have been lacking for decades.  

I also feel that Ruggs is best suited as a number 2 who is not the focal point of opposing #1 CB's and could be one of the best complimentary pieces to a Julio/ Tron number 1!  Having a Tron/ Julio number 1 with Ruggs stretching the field would take this O into the stratosphere.  

Edited by Frankie2Gunz
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1 hour ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

I like Ruggs the player as he adds a dynamic piece to an O that has lacked talent and been stale for many years.  I don't like where Ruggs was drafted, as I have always been in the camp that if you take a WR in the top 15 that WR better be in the mold of Julio Jones/ Megatron which Ruggs is not.  

While I agree that Ruggs has number 1 potential the route for him to get there is much more narrow than a big, tall, physical, large catch radius WR like Julio or Tron.  How can Ruggs become a number 1 WR?  He will have to put in the time and become a route running technician like AB which is far more difficult than players like Julio and Tron who dominate because they are bigger, stronger and more physically gifted than the players who are trying to shut them down.   

Ruggs has speed and tons of it but we have all seen WR's drafted high before that have tons of speed that never pan out.  Ruggs will be as good as he wants to be but to be a number 1, in the mold of AB, he will have to work extremely hard at becoming a route running technician.  

If we use him strictly as a straight line threat, as we did with NA last season, he will provide value but will never live up to his draft status and will never become that true number 1 that we have been lacking for decades.  

I also feel that Ruggs is best suited as a number 2 who is not the focal point of opposing #1 CB's and could be one of the best complimentary pieces to a Julio/ Tron number 1!  Having a Tron/ Julio number 1 with Ruggs stretching the field would take this O into the stratosphere.  

I agree with you completely. 

I wouldn't have taken Ruggs, especially where we did with the board the way that it was. 

I wasn't really arguing that I expect or project Ruggs to be that #1 type. My point was more just centered around the idea that I don't believe the staff drafted him with the idea he would never be that from the jump or even right now. Now we can argue that our front office doesn't seem to have the best evaluations or understanding of those things and I won't fight you. 

But it has been done before by guys with similar size and speed, and it's entirely too early to write Ruggs off after a single year. That was all I was really getting at. 

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12 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

 

I said a couple years ago I could take people from Footballs Future forums and run the team better than it has been.  Not saying coaching but front office types. I had a lot of people here tell me I was crazy.  This team has screwed up so many times for so long I think just getting lucky we could do better.  You could give me the generally excepted top ten draft prospects from internet experts at each pick we have had and I could pick out of a hat with a higher success rate.  We either select busts or overdraft with just about every pick.  The majority of players we select that live up to their draft position are usually taken in the 4th and 5th rounds with occasional 6th and 7th rounders.  I would say trade away picks but we would just give the picks to the Steelers for a WR that will not produce for us.  Feel free to add more but 2 rules are do not sign Patriot FAs, unless it is the GOAT, and do not trade with Pittsburgh.

This year it was extra crazy cause I think kc took my top 2 guys. 
 

I had to watch Pitt take not only my guy bud but then double back and get my other guy watt now the have my wr 

or watch Warner ball for sf while we throw millions at random fa lbs 

det even took my top three with ziggy, slay and the og forgot his name 

Edited by NCOUGHMAN
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7 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

I have been saying this for over 20 years and we continue to get retread, castoff trash and spend very little draft capital to address this issue. I have been saying that an impact 3T will do the most for this D overall if we were to upgrade one position and we continue to neglect it.  It's truly mind boggling....  We have been the worst D of the last decade for a reason, which is reenforcement that we do a lot of things that are mind boggling.  

Last impact DT we had was Seymour and that was 10 years ago at the end of his career.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I believe next year we will address DT very heavy in the draft and or FA.  We signed some Mid-Level talent to one year deals.  They are higher level stop gaps with potential to be more.

I think Q.Jefferson will Be very good albeit upgradeable for us this year.  I’m not so sold on S. Thomas.  There’s potential for it but I’d be surprised if he isn’t here for only one year and is really only a average pass rush specialist.

In an ideal world use a 1st (or 2nd) on a DT then double dip on a NT backup in rounds 4-6 then sign a veteran starter or resign Hankins short term.

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7 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

I believe next year we will address DT very heavy in the draft and or FA.  We signed some Mid-Level talent to one year deals.  They are higher level stop gaps with potential to be more.

I think Q.Jefferson will Be very good albeit upgradeable for us this year.  I’m not so sold on S. Thomas.  There’s potential for it but I’d be surprised if he isn’t here for only one year and is really only a average pass rush specialist.

In an ideal world use a 1st (or 2nd) on a DT then double dip on a NT backup in rounds 4-6 then sign a veteran starter or resign Hankins short term.

I believe DT and CB could be targeted hard next offseason. Jefferson is okay, but we could use a stud DT. We focused on the edge this offseason. We brought alot of guys in at corner, and we'll see how they will do. Hayward is a stop gap on a one year deal, unless he shows he is not washed. If Arnette doesn't break out, I see us bringing in a stud corner too. We addressed safety in the last draft

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On 6/30/2021 at 6:37 AM, Frankie2Gunz said:

I have been saying this for over 20 years and we continue to get retread, castoff trash and spend very little draft capital to address this issue. I have been saying that an impact 3T will do the most for this D overall if we were to upgrade one position and we continue to neglect it.  It's truly mind boggling....  We have been the worst D of the last decade for a reason, which is reenforcement that we do a lot of things that are mind boggling.  

The good news is at least we addressed free safety, which is also a super impactful position on the defense. I think we go DT in the first round next year not gonna lie. That or cornerback.

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3 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

The good news is at least we addressed free safety, which is also a super impactful position on the defense. I think we go DT in the first round next year not gonna lie. That or cornerback.

Absolutely as our CB and DT position are currently trash.  Either I would be fine with.  

FS can be an impactful position but that is dependent on pass rush.  If we dont have a pass rush (similar to the last decade plus) and expect a FS to have an impact in regards to turn overs, it's not going to happen.  

We are also in desperate need of an elite number 1 WR.  I have made my opinion quite clear on here and that is we should not a take WR in the 1st unless that player is a Megatron, Julio type of elite WR.  Hopefully we can go after a young up and coming big/physical Wr next FA period. I have hopes that Edwards can turn into that type of player but as it currently stands it is all hope as he has proved nothing in the NFL. 

Edited by Frankie2Gunz
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