Raiders DE Carl Nassib announces he's gay

[Deadpulse]

10 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

On this whole, "I don't care" bit, I think a big part of the instinctive backlash to those who say that they don't really care about this or his sexuality or whatever, is "I don't care" is 100% a cover up for many people who really do wish to say "I don't want to hear about this" or "I don't like this." That may not be the people posting in this thread, I certainly hope it isn't, but there is absolutely a crowd that does use that statement that way, and you do kind of lump yourself in with that group by saying similar things. Up until recently, I had two employees who fell very hard into this category. Black Lives Matter? They don't care if you're black. Juneteenth? They don't care about any of those holidays or months that aren't for everyone. Diversity or inclusion talks? Who cares what anyone is anyway? And every time, when you got them at home or on Twitter or just feeling a little bit less like self-censoring, they would be clear that what they really wanted was for those people to just be quiet about it all, and leave them alone. There's a lot of that out there on social media and in the real world, and "I don't care" is an easy politically correct cover for a lot of those opinions. It becomes "I don't care so stop talking about this." Again, I am not saying anyone in this thread are those people, but that is who you get associated with, when the same words or rhetoric come out. The line between "I don't care because all people are equal" and "I don't care because I just don't want to hear this crap" is not obvious.

But beyond this, just from a common usage and interpretation, I don't know how anyone could believe a phrase like "I don't care" to be truly neutral. "I don't care," in any context, is going to be interpreted negatively. Anyone would interpret that response, to virtually any topic, that way. If a coworker approaches me and says "Man, I had a great day yesterday," and I respond, "I don't care," I'm a complete and total prick. Full stop. That is 100% how that would come across. If someone makes a thread here, that they invested time and research into, they post a few paragraphs and some statistics about a topic they're invested or opinionated on, and as soon as they post that thread, I reply immediately "I don't care," again, I'm a prick. It is a negative response, because almost undoubtedly, whoever I'm responding to does care. The internet complicates the question of who we're responding to. We could consider that to be Nassib, we could consider that to be OP, or just whoever is reading this thread, really, but by saying you don't care, you are absolutely projecting negativity towards those who do care. Saying you don't care is a disagreement and a shut down to those who do. And even if that's not the intent, it should be abundantly clear by this point, in modern society, that intent is not all that matters, interpretation matters as well. The world is full of people saying insensitive things that they don't realize are insensitive, but how people hear what you say does matter in a different, but no less important way, than how you mean it.

I have been blessed enough in life to have strong and trusting enough relationships to have had three people very dear to me at those points in my life come out to me, in their own ways. And I remember how I responded. I remember how nervous they were, even knowing the kind of person I was and who I try to be. They were nerve wracking moments for each of them, fearing what this could change or how I may react. For two of them I was either the first person they came out to, or was in a group that was first. And I can't imagine how brutal a response of "I don't care" would have been, to them. Even if I just meant that it doesn't change anything to me, even if I meant well and they knew it, I imagine it would have been truly heartbreaking for those three words to be the first they heard. It's a shut down. It's a phrase used to end.

If you don't care, shut up. I don't care, that you don't care. Enjoy your apathy in silence, and allow those who do care to rally together and support each other.

 

I don't know that I'll reply to anyone who replies to this post. I won't want to, but sometimes I can't resist. But I read through 32 pages and I wasn't going to be able to go to sleep without posting something of my own.

Great post. I think it is important to point out that personal growth can come from realizing your intent does not match up with common interpretation of what you say/do. 

[scar988]

10 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

On this whole, "I don't care" bit, I think a big part of the instinctive backlash to those who say that they don't really care about this or his sexuality or whatever, is "I don't care" is 100% a cover up for many people who really do wish to say "I don't want to hear about this" or "I don't like this." That may not be the people posting in this thread, I certainly hope it isn't, but there is absolutely a crowd that does use that statement that way, and you do kind of lump yourself in with that group by saying similar things. Up until recently, I had two employees who fell very hard into this category. Black Lives Matter? They don't care if you're black. Juneteenth? They don't care about any of those holidays or months that aren't for everyone. Diversity or inclusion talks? Who cares what anyone is anyway? And every time, when you got them at home or on Twitter or just feeling a little bit less like self-censoring, they would be clear that what they really wanted was for those people to just be quiet about it all, and leave them alone. There's a lot of that out there on social media and in the real world, and "I don't care" is an easy politically correct cover for a lot of those opinions. It becomes "I don't care so stop talking about this." Again, I am not saying anyone in this thread are those people, but that is who you get associated with, when the same words or rhetoric come out. The line between "I don't care because all people are equal" and "I don't care because I just don't want to hear this crap" is not obvious.

But beyond this, just from a common usage and interpretation, I don't know how anyone could believe a phrase like "I don't care" to be truly neutral. "I don't care," in any context, is going to be interpreted negatively. Anyone would interpret that response, to virtually any topic, that way. If a coworker approaches me and says "Man, I had a great day yesterday," and I respond, "I don't care," I'm a complete and total prick. Full stop. That is 100% how that would come across. If someone makes a thread here, that they invested time and research into, they post a few paragraphs and some statistics about a topic they're invested or opinionated on, and as soon as they post that thread, I reply immediately "I don't care," again, I'm a prick. It is a negative response, because almost undoubtedly, whoever I'm responding to does care. The internet complicates the question of who we're responding to. We could consider that to be Nassib, we could consider that to be OP, or just whoever is reading this thread, really, but by saying you don't care, you are absolutely projecting negativity towards those who do care. Saying you don't care is a disagreement and a shut down to those who do. And even if that's not the intent, it should be abundantly clear by this point, in modern society, that intent is not all that matters, interpretation matters as well. The world is full of people saying insensitive things that they don't realize are insensitive, but how people hear what you say does matter in a different, but no less important way, than how you mean it.

I have been blessed enough in life to have strong and trusting enough relationships to have had three people very dear to me at those points in my life come out to me, in their own ways. And I remember how I responded. I remember how nervous they were, even knowing the kind of person I was and who I try to be. They were nerve wracking moments for each of them, fearing what this could change or how I may react. For two of them I was either the first person they came out to, or was in a group that was first. And I can't imagine how brutal a response of "I don't care" would have been, to them. Even if I just meant that it doesn't change anything to me, even if I meant well and they knew it, I imagine it would have been truly heartbreaking for those three words to be the first they heard. It's a shut down. It's a phrase used to end.

If you don't care, shut up. I don't care, that you don't care. Enjoy your apathy in silence, and allow those who do care to rally together and support each other.

 

I don't know that I'll reply to anyone who replies to this post. I won't want to, but sometimes I can't resist. But I read through 32 pages and I wasn't going to be able to go to sleep without posting something of my own.

Spot on. Thank you for posting this so eloquently. 

[scar988]

9 hours ago, RaidersAreOne said:

As others have said, yes he will this year purely due to his contract. Next year he is a goner though unless he significantly ups his play. The contract was a bad one day one, but his play last year was weak at best and now we added Yannick + Crosby is healthy, not to mention Ferrell is pretty solid yet unspectacular.

I already know we are going to get such bad PR when we cut him but it is what it is. I hope he crushes it for us or whoever he plays for down the road.

I don't see why. If he's cut, it's due to cap or play or both. Nothing more. Michael Sam was cut by the Rams because he was terrible in preseason. Kept getting washed out against the run, generating no pressure, showing piss poor technique. No one gave the Rams backlash for it.

8 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Why, though? It's not like the media and fans are just going to automatically assume you released him because he's gay. Nobody is questioning the Browns or TB intentions for releasing him, nor do they with the Rams for releasing Sam.

His play on the field will speak for itself and the org as a whole. The only way the Raiders (or any team) would receive any backlash is if he balls out, gets released, and there's some sort of clear extreme prejudice going on behind the scenes that gets leaked to confirm it.

Other than that, if he gets released then he just wasn't a good enough player....simple as that. Nothing more, nothing less.

Exactly. Or that they needed the cap space (which is also a completely acceptable reason to cut a guy.)

[GSUeagles14]

27 minutes ago, Deadpulse said:

Great post. I think it is important to point out that personal growth can come from realizing your intent does not match up with common interpretation of what you say/do. 

While I largly agree with @Jakuviouspost, im going to defend at least some people who say "they dont care". Maybe that isnt the most eloquent way to put it, but if i were to say 'I dont care", its not that im not happy for or the many other things that could come up, its me saying i dont think if you any differently and will treat you the same as everyone else. While we're not there today, isnt it the end goal to get to that point? 

[y*so*blu]

I'm glad he felt comfortable enough to make this announcement. To me it signals a positive change that's been a long time coming.  I wish him success and all the rewards that come with it.

Like all football players, Carl Nassib is doing something I'm not tough enough to do which is hit and get hit for a living. I respect and appreciate that. It's a reason I watch the game. 🍻

[pwny]

36 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said:

While I largly agree with @Jakuviouspost, im going to defend at least some people who say "they dont care". Maybe that isnt the most eloquent way to put it, but if i were to say 'I dont care", its not that im not happy for or the many other things that could come up, its me saying i dont think if you any differently and will treat you the same as everyone else. While we're not there today, isnt it the end goal to get to that point? 

Sure. It’s the end goal. And it’s the goal now. But to get there now, we need to practice empathy and equity. And leaving it at “I don’t care who is gay” isn’t getting there. Language and the way we communicate concepts is important.

At the very least, you have to understand that continuing to dig in your heals for your right to simply say “I don’t care” gives cover for bigots to use the same language while acting hurtful and then being able to pivot and say “no, I’m just like everyone else that doesn’t care”. Mods have done a good job getting rid of those posts, but it’s literally been done in this thread. There’s far better ways to say “your sexuality doesn’t change what I think about you, but I have full empathy and will help you get equity” than language that gives cover to bigotry. 

[Blackstar12]

A little late to this thread but good for him. It’s also nice to see him get support across the sports world. I’ve had multiple family members and friends come out through the years and I still love them the same.

Edited June 23, 2021 by Blackstar12

[GSUeagles14]

41 minutes ago, pwny said:

Sure. It’s the end goal. And it’s the goal now. But to get there now, we need to practice empathy and equity. And leaving it at “I don’t care who is gay” isn’t getting there. Language and the way we communicate concepts is important.

At the very least, you have to understand that continuing to dig in your heals for your right to simply say “I don’t care” gives cover for bigots to use the same language while acting hurtful and then being able to pivot and say “no, I’m just like everyone else that doesn’t care”. Mods have done a good job getting rid of those posts, but it’s literally been done in this thread. There’s far better ways to say “your sexuality doesn’t change what I think about you, but I have full empathy and will help you get equity” than language that gives cover to bigotry. 

This isn’t the place for a full debate, however I’ll address a couple quick things then drop it.

first, no where am I “digging in my heels”,  I’m saying I’m not perfect (as none of us are) and sometimes I may articulate the thought better and sometimes it may be the quick throwaway. Saying I’m automatically wrong for the latter seems foolish.

 

secondly, and somewhat tied to the first, actions mean so much more than words. Anyone can say words and when you start saying if you say “x” your wrong or homophobic but if you say “y” you’re golden, well then those people will just say “y”.  I mean, look at what’s happened in this thread, some who have gotten the slightest amount of pushback have shown they really do care. It hasn’t been hard to figure those people out, and at least theoretically it should be easier to hide in a setting like this.

 

[BroncoSojia]

17 hours ago, Glen said:

Hyper masculine sport in a society that thrives off toxic masculinity that has for the better part of the last 400 years looked down upon LGBTQ for not fitting societies masculine mold. And a man whose portrayed as a face of what everyone in society should strive to be decides to come out against that mold & choose to be his own person.

Pretty brave imo

This is a great post, IMO.

[pwny]

2 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said:

first, no where am I “digging in my heels”,  I’m saying I’m not perfect (as none of us are) and sometimes I may articulate the thought better and sometimes it may be the quick throwaway. Saying I’m automatically wrong for the latter seems foolish.

Sure, none of us are perfect and we’re gonna make mistakes. But if we are going to get to the end goal, we all have to be willing to grow and be better than we have in the past. And with that comes an understanding that if we say something that can come across in a way that we don’t intend, that we work to not do that going forward. We can make sure that we see people for who they are and what makes them different, have true empathy for them regardless of those differences, and make sure we understand those differences so that we can treat them equitably. 

As to the second part, nobody is saying that if you say “I don’t care,” you’re automatically homophobic and wrong. We’re saying that the language is regressive, gives cover to ideals to commingle under words and phrases that highlight bigotry, and that we can do better by not using that language going forward. That’s all. We all make mistakes, but the key when we do is that if we are given a chance to learn and grow as a result, we do so.

And bigots aren’t going to use talking points about empathy and equitable rights for marginalized communities. And if they do, they have no leg to stand on when we go forward enacting equitable change and no means to push back against the changes that we are looking to make because they have no talking point that can push back on equitable change if they’re voicing a desire for equitable change. 

 

[Matts4313]

12 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

I don't know how anyone could believe a phrase like "I don't care" to be truly neutral. "I don't care," in any context, is going to be interpreted negatively. Anyone would interpret that response, to virtually any topic, that way. If a coworker approaches me and says "Man, I had a great day yesterday," and I respond, "I don't care," I'm a complete and total prick. Full stop.

Although I agree with you in general, and I thought your post was fantastic, this logic is strange to me. Words have definition and meaning. I liken this to someone saying the word 'ignorant' is always negative. 

"Matts, can you tell me about 3rd century Russian philosophers" - "Nope, I am ignorant to that subject".

Matts, we were invited to a gay wedding. You wanna come" - "Sure, I dont care that they are gay"

 

In both instances, you are not being a donkey about anything. There are a lot of times that the words "I dont care" simply means it doesnt effect you nor does it impact your thinking about something or someone. It is absolutely possible to "not care" about someones race/religion/sexuality/political stance/whatever when you are discussing your relationship to that person. That is an entirely different stance than "not caring" about the trials and tribulations a person has to go through. I can "not care" that Carl is gay, while simultaneously "care" that he has had to hide it publicly for so long and that an entire community of people have had it much harder historically and presently.  

 

I think that is what is getting lost in translation over the past 30 pages. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by Matts4313

[BroncoSojia]

8 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Although I agree with you in general, and I thought your post was fantastic, this logic is strange to me. Words have definition and meaning. I liken this to someone saying the word 'ignorant' is always negative. 

"Matts, can you tell me about 3rd century Russian philosophers" - "Nope, I am ignorant to that subject".

Matts, we were invited to a gay wedding. You wanna come" - "Sure, I dont care that they are gay"

 

In both instances, you are not being a donkey about anything. There are a lot of times that the words "I dont care" simply means it doesnt effect you nor does it impact your thinking about something or someone. It is absolutely possible to "not care" about someones race/religion/sexuality/political stance/whatever when you are discussing your relationship to that person. That is an entirely different stance than "not caring" about the trials and tribulations a person has to go through. I can "not care" that Carl is gay, while simultaneously "care" that he has had to hide it publicly for so long and that an entire community of people have had it much harder historically and presently.  

 

I think that is what is getting lost in translation over the past 30 pages. 

If you truly "don't care", then why bother responding to the topic at all? Just ignore it.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

4 minutes ago, BroncoSojia said:

If you truly "don't care", then why bother responding to the topic at all? Just ignore it.

Nah, that doesn’t help anyone.

If you truly don’t care, keep reading, keep discussing, keep absorbing other viewpoints and hopefully we can convince you that not caring isn’t enough.  Tolerance is a start, but acceptance is what’s necessary.  These people can be reached imo.

If you are just using the “I don’t care” as camouflage for bigotry, then yeah, keep it moving.

[Matts4313]

5 minutes ago, BroncoSojia said:

If you truly "don't care", then why bother responding to the topic at all? Just ignore it.

I am discussing words, definitions and having a conversation. I enjoy those things. Additionally, although I do *mostly* subscribe to what I said above, I disagree when people brush other people with broad strokes. So I dont like it when a long standing and respected member of the forum says "if you use the words "dont care" regarding *any subject*, you are a prick". Or another poster that said "If someone is mean to a christian, the christian deserved it". Those are just more forms of bigotry and prejudice hidden in a 'SJW' wrapper. You shouldnt dismiss people for different ideologies or stereotype them. Whether thats because they are gay, straight, black, white, whatever. Its hypocrisy to do so. 

As I have said a million times, I am happy for Carl and think he did a good thing. I think most of us agree with that. It seems like a lot of the back and forth is based on people attempting to spin words. 

[scar988]

18 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Although I agree with you in general, and I thought your post was fantastic, this logic is strange to me. Words have definition and meaning. I liken this to someone saying the word 'ignorant' is always negative. 

"Matts, can you tell me about 3rd century Russian philosophers" - "Nope, I am ignorant to that subject".

Matts, we were invited to a gay wedding. You wanna come" - "Sure, I dont care that they are gay"

 

In both instances, you are not being a donkey about anything. There are a lot of times that the words "I dont care" simply means it doesnt effect you nor does it impact your thinking about something or someone. It is absolutely possible to "not care" about someones race/religion/sexuality/political stance/whatever when you are discussing your relationship to that person. That is an entirely different stance than "not caring" about the trials and tribulations a person has to go through. I can "not care" that Carl is gay, while simultaneously "care" that he has had to hide it publicly for so long and that an entire community of people have had it much harder historically and presently.  

 

I think that is what is getting lost in translation over the past 30 pages. 

Then the verbiage to express the sentiment that you "don't care that he's gay" is wrong. Instead of using negative or reductive verbiage like "I don't care." Say something like, "I'm glad he doesn't have to hide who he is anymore." It's the same sentiment that you're cool with him being gay, but also shows a message of support towards the person coming out. Just food for thought.

BTW, I'm not coming at you, just trying to show that there might be a better way to express this same sentiment that doesn't come off in a way you aren't intending it to.

2 hours ago, GSUeagles14 said:

While I largly agree with @Jakuviouspost, im going to defend at least some people who say "they dont care". Maybe that isnt the most eloquent way to put it, but if i were to say 'I dont care", its not that im not happy for or the many other things that could come up, its me saying i dont think if you any differently and will treat you the same as everyone else. While we're not there today, isnt it the end goal to get to that point? 

The eloquence is what avoids confusion. So instead of saying, "I don't care," just try to put it as a positive. Even a "Good for him" is a better sentiment and shows that you're cool with it without giving off the selfishness that an "I don't care" does.