Jump to content

Raiders DE Carl Nassib announces he's gay


Recommended Posts

28 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Would yo not agree that "not caring" about someones race/religion/sexual identity/etc is much closer to acceptance than tolerance? 

I don't think this is correct in modern society. When it comes to race/sexual identity/gender identity/etc. even if you're saying you don't care as a positive or neutral thing in your mind, it's not. For several reasons. The first being like what pwn has been saying --- it gives cover to actual bigots out there to use the same verbiage and get away from it.

The other thing is that while these groups are still being marginalized in society, saying "I don't care" is not supportive nor recognizing their plight. It's passive marginalization. Using language that is supportive and celebratory of people's identity is much better if you are truly happy and supportive of these people. Someone's race or sexual identity or gender identity isn't some label on a bottle; it's who they are as people. 

I understand the intent may not be harmful, but the impact is.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Adrenaline_Flux said:

I don't think this is correct in modern society. When it comes to race/sexual identity/gender identity/etc. even if you're saying you don't care as a positive or neutral thing in your mind, it's not. For several reasons. The first being like what pwn has been saying --- it gives cover to actual bigots out there to use the same verbiage and get away from it.

The other thing is that while these groups are still being marginalized in society, saying "I don't care" is not supportive nor recognizing their plight. It's passive marginalization. Using language that is supportive and celebratory of people's identity is much better if you are truly happy and supportive of these people. Someone's race or sexual identity or gender identity isn't some label on a bottle; it's who they are as people. 

I understand the intent may not be harmful, but the impact is.

That's why we need to change the thinking of "I don't care" to "I'm cool with that" or "I'm ok with that."

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Adrenaline_Flux said:

I think a lot of people here would be well-served researching intent vs impact to understand why rhetoric they may perceive as "neutral" is regressive and harmful toward marginalized people.

It would also be fair to understand that not caring about someones sexuality is not the same as not caring about marginalized people. 

Its a very simple concept that has been explained many times by many people. One is an attitude towards the thoughts about an individual person. One is the the attitude towards a group or community of people. Its very simple and I really find it hard to believe that people cant grasp what is being said.

"John is my best friend, I dont care that he is :insert label:" (Orientation, race, religion, etc). 

":insert label: have been marginalized and persecuted, I do care about their human rights and that we love and treat people with respect"

To diverge from sexuality, the political spin in this thread could be analogous to someone saying "I am Hindu, but my girlfriend is Jewish. I dont care about our difference in religious beliefs though." And someone with a political agenda coming in and saying "You dont CARE about Jewish people!?! I bet you dont care about the Holocaust either!!". 

They are two separate things. People attempting to comingle them are being disingenuous imo.
 

1 minute ago, Dr LBC said:

I think BS' post was more about questioning the genuineness of the "I don't care" statement.  Dialogue shouldn't be discouraged, but if a person truly didn't care they wouldn't feel the need to invest the time into responding - barring them having a higher-than-perhaps-they-should opinion of their own importance - The person clearly cared enough to feel the need to interject their own two cents.  IDC is a proper interjection if someone is trying to pull you into conversation on a topic you have no interest in.  No one is forcing anyone to comment here, thus making commenting here or on any other social media platform with a response of "I don't care," to be disingenuous.

I will agree with what @scar988 said in regards to phraseology. But I stand by my stance that there are people who are purposely attempting to spin the phrase "i dont care". Its not the best way of saying it; but for many in this thread, they arent implying that they "dont care" about supporting marginalized communities of people or human rights. 

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Matts4313 said:

It would also be fair to understand that not caring about someones sexuality is not the same as not caring about marginalized people. 

Its a very simple concept that has been explained many times by many people. One is an attitude towards the thoughts about an individual person. One is the the attitude towards a group or community of people. Its very simple and I really find it hard to believe that people cant grasp what is being said.

"John is my best friend, I dont care that he is :insert label:" (Orientation, race, religion, etc). 

":insert label: have been marginalized and persecuted, I do care about their human rights and that we love and treat people with respect"

To diverge from sexuality, the political spin in this thread could be analogous to someone saying "I am Hindu, but my girlfriend is Jewish. I dont care about our difference in religious beliefs though." And someone with a political agenda coming in and saying "You dont CARE about Jewish people!?! I bet you dont care about the Holocaust either!!". 

They are two separate things. People attempting to comingle them are being disingenuous imo.

Someone's sexuality is part of who someone is though. Saying specifically "I don't care" is passive marginalization. Even if you do care about the marginalized person, you're saying you don't care about the aspect of their life that makes them marginalized. You're not supporting them for something they have experienced prejudice in regards to. It's like when people say "I don't see color" thinking that it's a supportive and progressive statement when it's not at all. 

I think the issue that is being ran into here is that a group of people, who probably do have good intent and are well-meaning, are being told that the rhetoric they're using is harmful and instead of listening and researching, they're being defensive or dismissive. Being a supportive ally means listening and being willing to learn and admit you were wrong. 

I don't think the example you provided is applicable in the same way at all. Quite a few logical fallacies associated with it and I don't think it'd be productive to dive into it at all. I do think it's telling though that a lot of the people in this thread clamoring for this regressive rhetoric to be acceptable keep bringing up religion. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

“Hey the language you’re using is harmful and regressive, even if you’re intending it not to be and it gives cover to bigotry. We can use different words. Here’s how to find some research that will help you understand why you don’t want to say it”

And yet rather than considering this to be the case, some people find it necessary to argue for their right to say “I don’t care.”

Good lord.

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

But I stand by my stance that there are people who are purposely attempting to spin the phrase "i dont care". Its not the best way of saying it; but for many in this thread, they arent implying that they "dont care" about supporting marginalized communities of people or human rights. 

It's not "spinning" it. Again, I think you'd be well-served researching intent vs impact. I've used the phrase a few times already, but "I don't care" in this context is passive marginalization. The intent to be harmful and regressive isn't there, but that's the impact it has.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Malfatron said:

genuine question for who it pertains to:

specifically why do you want phrase it as "I dont care" as opposed to "I'm cool with that"?

 

If I were to think about it, If I were gay I’d be more offended by “I’m cool with that”.      Seems more like I’m giving permission for you to be gay honestly. Let’s pose a scenario…

 

billy is a great guy, does what he says, polite, friendly, etc etc. his friend for years, Tyler, is gay. They hang out regularly, do favors for each of other etc. billy tells Tyler he doesn’t care that he’s gay, they’re great friends and he would never treat him any differently because of sexual preference.

 

who really thinks Tyler takes offense because billy said he didn’t care that he was gay?
 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Adrenaline_Flux said:

Someone's sexuality is part of who someone is though. Saying specifically "I don't care" is passive marginalization. Even if you do care about the marginalized person, you're saying you don't care about the aspect of their life that makes them marginalized. You're not supporting them for something they have experienced prejudice in regards to. It's like when people say "I don't see color" thinking that it's a supportive and progressive statement when it's not at all. 

I think the issue that is being ran into here is that a group of people, who probably do have good intent and are well-meaning, are being told that the rhetoric they're using is harmful and instead of listening and researching, they're being defensive or dismissive. Being a supportive ally means listening and being willing to learn and admit you were wrong. 

I don't think the example you provided is applicable in the same way at all. Quite a few logical fallacies associated with it and I don't think it'd be productive to dive into it at all. I do think it's telling though that a lot of the people in this thread clamoring for this regressive rhetoric to be acceptable keep bringing up religion. 

 

2 minutes ago, pwny said:

“Hey the language you’re using is harmful and regressive, even if you’re intending it not to be and it gives cover to bigotry. We can use different words. Here’s how to find some research that will help you understand why you don’t want to say it”

And yet rather than considering this to be the case, some people find it necessary to argue for their right to say “I don’t care.”

Good lord.

 

10 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

I will agree with what @scar988 said in regards to phraseology. But I stand by my stance that there are people who are purposely attempting to spin the phrase "i dont care". Its not the best way of saying it; but for many in this thread, they arent implying that they "dont care" about supporting marginalized communities of people or human rights. 

Ive literally conceded this point. @scar988 made a really solid point that "Thats cool/good for him/etc" is better than "I dont care" when discussing someones identity (sex/race/religion/etc). The phrase "I dont care" on face value isnt an incorrect term. When I meet someone I dont ask about their race/religion/politics/orientation; because I want to know who they are as a person and if they have common interest in life and a good heart. To me, personally, I "care" more about who you are as a person than who you vote for or take home at night. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Adrenaline_Flux said:

Being a supportive ally means listening and being willing to learn and admit you were wrong. 

Yup. If you’re going to argue that you are an ally but that your allyship has to be on your terms, you’re doing it wrong. It isn’t hard to just not say “I don’t care” and to instead say something else that is reaffirming and doesn’t give cover to bigots. And if you’re not going to listen to LGBT people who say “don’t say that, it’s regressive and harmful,” maybe you need to really rethink how much you truly care about the struggles they face. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Matts4313 said:

Ive literally conceded this point. @scar988 made a really solid point that "Thats cool/good for him/etc" is better than "I dont care" when discussing someones identity (sex/race/religion/etc). The phrase "I dont care" on face value isnt an incorrect term. When I meet someone I dont ask about their race/religion/politics/orientation; because I want to know who they are as a person and if they have common interest in life and a good heart. To me, personally, I "care" more about who you are as a person than who you vote for or take home at night. 

What you're missing is that "I don't care" IS an incorrect phrase to use because it's passive marginalization. Someone's sexual identity is literally their identity. You don't need to ask someone what their sexual identity is, but it is a part of who they are.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Adrenaline_Flux said:

It's not "spinning" it. Again, I think you'd be well-served researching intent vs impact. I've used the phrase a few times already, but "I don't care" in this context is passive marginalization. The intent to be harmful and regressive isn't there, but that's the impact it has.

I understand what you are saying perfectly. The spin I am referring to is that some people keep applying "I dont care about an individuals :label:" to mean "I dont care about that community/human rights/oppression/etc". I completely understand how saying you dont care about gay people is regressive. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said:

If I were to think about it, If I were gay I’d be more offended by “I’m cool with that”.      Seems more like I’m giving permission for you to be gay honestly. Let’s pose a scenario…

 

billy is a great guy, does what he says, polite, friendly, etc etc. his friend for years, Tyler, is gay. They hang out regularly, do favors for each of other etc. billy tells Tyler he doesn’t care that he’s gay, they’re great friends and he would never treat him any differently because of sexual preference.

 

who really thinks Tyler takes offense because billy said he didn’t care that he was gay?

There's a difference between telling a friend "I don't care you're gay, because I love and support you regardless" and going into a thread about a stranger coming out as gay in a profession that has a history of toxic masculinity and saying "I don't care"

There's also a fallacy in "my one gay friend said it's okay"

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...