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Raiders DE Carl Nassib announces he's gay


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5 minutes ago, JonStark said:

You have been telling me that using that phrase is harmful and insensitive and that I need to fix myself.

Because you're saying it on a public forum, not in your private life with someone you know and have had a dialogue with about what is and isn't acceptable.

And I never said you needed to fix yourself or made any declaration that relayed such information. Please stop putting words in my mouth and making unfounded accusations.

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Instead you went with the "Do some research because you're being hurtful and are wrong" route. 

Actually, no. You responded to me telling someone that was actually saying bigoted things (and had posts removed) that they needed to research why it was wrong by telling me that you'll do the research, but it isn't wrong and doesn't apply to you. That's how this started.

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4 minutes ago, Malfatron said:

"because you're a great friend and I love you."

Based on his question he clearly think I would care, why else would he ask a question like that.

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18 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

I legitimately wonder how anyone who is willing to die on the hill that "I don't care" isn't offensive survives in an office environment. 

or maintains friendships....interacts with family....more or less any interpersonal relationships lol. that's the funniest part- i doubt a lot of the people going to bat for this on here actually behave like this in real life because they'd be thoroughly miserable to be around if they did.

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13 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said:

What do you want me to do, have people call you that I already said would be offended by this very debate? You avoided the question. Now you seem to be insisting that people only think one way. I don’t even know what to say to that.

No, not avoiding the question at all. I'm positing that your "person who will get offended by positive affirmations" flatly does not exist. So, if you would like me to explain how we navigate in the world around this person, show me they exist first and we can start from there.

Show me the person who is offended by affirmations like in that quote. Show me the piece of literature that says to avoid positive affirmations and instead act like it isn't a big deal. Show me one blog post of a single person who would be offended by the changes we're suggesting be made. Hell, go text your gay friends and ask them if positive affirmation of their sexuality that doesn't involve phrases like "I don't care" or "it's not a big deal to me" would bother them. Show me one single one that would be bothered by that act. Not someone who doesn't want to debate the merits of either usage, or one that doesn't care about the topic and wishes people would spend less time arguing. Just one single person, any person you can find, that is both a member of the LGBT+ community and also would be offended by the suggestions in the link Malf posted.

If you can find me this one single person, then we can discuss it. Otherwise, we might as well be asking "what are the Easter Bunny's thoughts?".

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2 minutes ago, MrDrew said:

It  interesting how people are going out of their way to prove they care so that they can say that they don't, instead of just realizing that there's a better way to portray that somebody being gay doesn't change any feeling/opinions about them.

I'll go back to the grandma example I used earlier, and this is how it would go in this situation

Person 1: Can you watch your language around my grandma. Shes doesn't like cussing.

Person 2: My grandma is cool with it, so I'm just going to talk the way I would around her.

Person 1: That's not really cool. It upsets her, and her friends that are there.

Person 2: I told you my grandma is cool with it, and so is her friend, so I'm not changing anything.

 

Youve said this 3 times in the last hour, and I still dont understand who you are talking to. Who has actually debated the idea that there are not better and/or other ways to state things? This feels like another strawman argument. 

@GSUeagles14 seems to be stating that the audience will decide if the phraseology is correct and that it will likely be due to the relationship with that person individually. 

@JonStark seems to be agreeing there are phrases that can be more inclusive, but did not like the vitriol that some (not naming posters) attacked others with. 

@MWil23 seems to be stating the obvious - that tone is paramount in how someone receives a message. Which, in my opinion, can be hard to convey on the internet. 

My entire point was that I dont think most people said anything *technically* wrong, but we should all learn and grow in our communication. Additionally spinning someones message based upon their common lexicon to imply (or flat out state) they are a bigot/prick/repressive/etc individual is also a very poor method of communication.  

 

I dont really see anyone thats actively posting promoting that they should not be respectful and mindful of how things are phrased; and outside of a very select few posters, I think almost everyone has expressed they are happy the progress that Carl has/is bringing to the subject. 

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4 minutes ago, pwny said:

Because you're saying it on a public forum, not in your private life with someone you know and have had a dialogue with about what is and isn't acceptable.

And I never said you needed to fix yourself or made any declaration that relayed such information. Please stop putting words in my mouth and making unfounded accusations.

Actually, no. You responded to me telling someone that was actually saying bigoted things (and had posts removed) that they needed to research why it was wrong by telling me that you'll do the research, but it isn't wrong and doesn't apply to you. That's how this started.

 

5 minutes ago, pwny said:

Because you're saying it on a public forum, not in your private life with someone you know and have had a dialogue with about what is and isn't acceptable.

And I never said you needed to fix yourself or made any declaration that relayed such information. Please stop putting words in my mouth and making unfounded accusations.

Actually, no. You responded to me telling someone that was actually saying bigoted things (and had posts removed) that they needed to research why it was wrong by telling me that you'll do the research, but it isn't wrong and doesn't apply to you. That's how this started.

Alright man I’m bowing out again. Just because that is how our conversation started does not mean you didn’t go with the strong arm approach. We’ve wasted way too much time going back and forth, and while I thought we had some common ground with your previous post, you refuse to acknowledge my actual point of view. You want so bad for everyone else to admit they are wrong and you are right but refuse to look at yourself as well. We are both on the same side and for some reason you have made me out to be the enemy. 
 

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9 minutes ago, -Hope- said:

or maintains friendships....interacts with family....more or less any interpersonal relationships lol. that's the funniest part- i doubt a lot of the people going to bat for this on here actually behave like this in real life because they'd be thoroughly miserable to be around if they did.

I come from a family of vehement "I don't care"-ers, and had to spend a lot of my 20's un-learning a lot of bad habits. Still am, but improving communication is part of being an adult.

I can confirm for you they behave like that in real life and are thoroughly miserable to be around.

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7 minutes ago, JonStark said:

You want so bad for everyone else to admit they are wrong and you are right but refuse to look at yourself as well. We are both on the same side and for some reason you have made me out to be the enemy. 

Spot on. Not just pwny though, there are a few that have taken this stance. Some of my favorite people on the site have seemed to take the "my way or the highway" approach to this conversation.

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24 minutes ago, pwny said:

No, not avoiding the question at all. I'm positing that your "person who will get offended by positive affirmations" flatly does not exist. So, if you would like me to explain how we navigate in the world around this person, show me they exist first and we can start from there.

Show me the person who is offended by affirmations like in that quote. Show me the piece of literature that says to avoid positive affirmations and instead act like it isn't a big deal. Show me one blog post of a single person who would be offended by the changes we're suggesting be made. Hell, go text your gay friends and ask them if positive affirmation of their sexuality that doesn't involve phrases like "I don't care" or "it's not a big deal to me" would bother them. Show me one single one that would be bothered by that act. Not someone who doesn't want to debate the merits of either usage, or one that doesn't care about the topic and wishes people would spend less time arguing. Just one single person, any person you can find, that is both a member of the LGBT+ community and also would be offended by the suggestions in the link Malf posted.

If you can find me this one single person, then we can discuss it. Otherwise, we might as well be asking "what are the Easter Bunny's thoughts?".

No, you very much avoiding the question. You said as much. you may think you have good reason for avoiding it but that’s irrelevant.

 

no, I’m not asking the two people that I’ve already said would be offended if they even knew this much thought was going into it their thoughts on it. And it’s possible one of my cousins and their significant other would be offended but I’m not texting them out of the blue to ask them.  You’re essentially saying I don’t think this way so it’s impossible for anyone else does. Now i don’t think you actually believe it, cause then you’d be saying you knew how everyone in the lgbtq community thinks and feels. Which is preposterous obviously.

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1 minute ago, JonStark said:

you refuse to acknowledge my actual point of view. 

Literal quotes from me directed at you:

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I understand exactly what you’re saying

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I fully understand that the position you’re aligning yourself as feels to you like you’re not causing harm.

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I was not calling you a homophobe. 

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I don’t think you’ve said anything that crosses that line towards intentionally harmful.

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I skipped past this when I first read it. Having read this, if this is decidedly true, I’m confident that if you read the research with an open mind, you’re gonna figure it out.

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if you do, regardless of your intent, you shouldn’t use passively dismissive language that’s regressive and harmful.

 

 

Here's me affirming other people in the same way in the thread:

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we’re literally saying that if it isn’t what you mean, use different words.

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Nobody is calling you a bigot for saying “I don’t care”. 

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If you don’t mean it to be harmful, then just say something different

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Nobody is blindly accusing anyone of not caring. 

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you should care about people’s struggles, and if you do, regardless of your intent, you shouldn’t use passively dismissive language that’s regressive and harmful.

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 if you don't mean to be, you change your language to reflect that.

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if you are an ally, please don't use these words

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Nobody is being called a bigot over using them

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we're just asking that if you're an ally, you stop using those words

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affirming the notion that regressive may not be the intent.

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Nobody has been called a bigot over this, nobody has been banned over it or been given a warning.

 

How much more acknowledgement of your point of view do you need? That's 17 different times that I've written a statement affirming that I'm assuming the person I'm talking to has the POV of an intended ally. How much more do you need? Seriously.

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4 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said:

No, you very much avoiding the question. You said as much. you may think you have good reason for avoiding it but that’s irrelevant.

 

no, I’m not asking the two people that I’ve already said would be offended if they even knew this much thought was going into it their thoughts on it. And it’s possible one of my cousins and their significant other would be offended but I’m not texting them out of the blue to ask them.  You’re essentially saying I don’t think this way so it’s impossible for anyone else does. Now i don’t think you actually believe it, cause then you’d be saying you knew how everyone in the lgbtq community thinks and feels. Which is preposterous obviously.

So to be clear, you cannot find a single person who is offended by words of affirmation.

Got it. Use the words of affirmation then and then just you know quit the debate that you know your LGBT+ friends and relatives would be offended you are in.

Also, nice little strawman that I underlined.

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31 minutes ago, -Hope- said:

or maintains friendships....interacts with family....more or less any interpersonal relationships lol. that's the funniest part- i doubt a lot of the people going to bat for this on here actually behave like this in real life because they'd be thoroughly miserable to be around if they did.

What are you even talking about? Behave like what? Treat people well and with respect regardless of sexual orientation. Open to how others feel? “Oh, you don’t like that way I said that? my apologies, I absolutely meant no offense and will certainly use whatever language you feel comfortable with”. Etc etc?

 

Talking about being miserable to be around…

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3 minutes ago, pwny said:

So to be clear, you cannot find a single person who is offended by words of affirmation.

Got it. Use the words of affirmation then and then just you know quit the debate that you know your LGBT+ friends and relatives would be offended you are in.

Also, nice little strawman that I underlined.

No, I told you I have two so specific friends that I know would be from conversations we’ve had. Why would I go out of my way to offend them, just because you want me to.

 

And Why would you outright lie about what I just said?

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4 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said:

No, I told you I have two so specific friends that I know would be from conversations we’ve had. Why would I go out of my way to offend them, just because you want me to.

 

And Why would you outright lie about what I just said?

No, you didn't. you told me about two specific friends who would be upset about the length of this conversation, not that positive affirmations would offend them. Sorry, keep looking for this person. Let me know when you find them. Thanks. In the mean time, you should probably bow out of this debate that you know your friends would be upset about you having.

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1 hour ago, MrDrew said:

I find it really sad that so many people in this world would rather work hard to be right instead of just being kind. 

 

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