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Raiders DE Carl Nassib announces he's gay


RaidersAreOne

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4 hours ago, Matts4313 said:

"You want tacos or burgers for dinner" "I dont care, up to you"

 

Nah, its pretty easy when you take the words at face value and not try to spin them with a political agenda. 😍

This is the worst analogy I’ve ever seen in my 30 trips around the sun.

Last time you made an analogy like this you prefaced it by admitting it was dumb. Did you forget on this one?

 

Edited by Dome
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Just now, Dome said:

This is the worst analogies I’ve ever seen in my 30 trips around the sun.

Last time you made an analogy like this you prefaced it by admitting it was dumb. Did you forget on this one?

 

No, no. This analogy is good. It’s a perfect encapsulation of the discussion. But an analogy of someone saying that they were hurt by something someone said isn’t relevant to a situation where LGBT+ people in this thread are literally saying they see hurt in the language being used. 

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5 minutes ago, Dome said:

This is the worst analogy I’ve ever seen in my 30 trips around the sun.

Last time you made an analogy like this you prefaced it by admitting it was dumb. Did you forget on this one?

 

To you and: 

3 minutes ago, pwny said:

No, no. This analogy is good. It’s a perfect encapsulation of the discussion. But an analogy of someone saying that they were hurt by something someone said isn’t relevant to a situation where LGBT+ people in this thread are literally saying they see hurt in the language being used. 

That wasnt an analogy. That was an example of using a the phrase "i dont care" in a non-donkey way. It was also me teasing Malf. 

 

Thanks and come again.

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8 hours ago, Deadpulse said:

Great post. I think it is important to point out that personal growth can come from realizing your intent does not match up with common interpretation of what you say/do. 

Yes, and this should always be the goal and endgame of any kind of dialogue like this. I think this is something that's missed when people complain or talk about cancel culture, too. The idea is that when something insensitive or harmful is unknowingly said, that should lead to communication and dialogue, that will hopefully lead to growth. Failing that, the next step winds up being tangible repercussions that force that growth. The backlash that some statements and actions get is necessary to bring attention and create that dialogue and growth.

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1 minute ago, pwny said:

Given we’re discussing the response to an athlete that just came out and is only just now publicly living their truth, it’s completely relevant. In fact, it’s the only thing relevant.

But given you admit you don’t know what they thought then, and only know individuals who have been fully out and no longer are in the middle of their coming out story, it’s pretty obvious you have no relevant knowledge of how to handle someone in the middle of their coming out story. So trust the literature. Stop pretending like you know more about the topic than the experts. Thanks.

I won’t be further responding to your pedantic examples of what you think people maybe would have thought at a certain point that you don’t know. Trust the experts. 

Except we were never solely talking about nassib. I can show you your own posts that very clearly show that.  It’s noted that you don’t care about what the lgbtq community feels, you just want to be right. If they don’t think like you they’re wrong. In gave you exactly what you asked for and you got answers you didn’t like so you come up with this crap. Congrats man, you showed yourself.
 

 

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1 minute ago, pwny said:

No, no. This analogy is good. It’s a perfect encapsulation of the discussion. But an analogy of someone saying that they were hurt by something someone said isn’t relevant to a situation where LGBT+ people in this thread are literally saying they see hurt in the language being used. 

Matts: “Hey man, how you been!”

Friend: “Great! Big year for me. Came out to my family as gay, they’ve met my partner, it took a ton of courage but I’m finally being me.”

Matt: “I don’t care.”

Friend: “Oh. I mean yeah it was really hard for a lot of years. Living behind a mask, tiptoeing around your own family and friends, th—“

Matts: “Oh yeah totally good for you. I just mean it’s like choosing between tacos or burgers for dinner.”

Friend: “ ….. “

Matts: “Or like choosing a different magazine. You know? Sure you do, you lived it. But I get it to, I’m an ally. I don’t care. I. DONT. CARE.”

…..

Matts: *nailed it*

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2 minutes ago, Dome said:

Matts: “Hey man, how you been!”

Friend: “Great! Big year for me. Came out to my family as gay, they’ve met my partner, it took a ton of courage but I’m finally being me.”

Matt: “I don’t care.”

Friend: “Oh. I mean yeah it was really hard for a lot of years. Living behind a mask, tiptoeing around your own family and friends, th—“

Matts: “Oh yeah totally good for you. I just mean it’s like choosing between tacos or burgers for dinner.”

Friend: “ ….. “

Matts: “Or like choosing a different magazine. You know? Sure you do, you lived it. But I get it to, I’m an ally. I don’t care. I. DONT. CARE.”

…..

Matts: *nailed it*

Lol. You never cease to amaze me. Your ability to spin conversations and create an imaginary narrative is unmatched. 

PS: I also never said the phrase "I dont care". So you couldnt even make it to my 'first response' before you strawmanned and created a completely delusional scenario. No wonder pwny was so quick to like it, he does the same. 😉

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7 hours ago, GSUeagles14 said:

While I largly agree with @Jakuviouspost, im going to defend at least some people who say "they dont care". Maybe that isnt the most eloquent way to put it, but if i were to say 'I dont care", its not that im not happy for or the many other things that could come up, its me saying i dont think if you any differently and will treat you the same as everyone else. While we're not there today, isnt it the end goal to get to that point? 

I'm sure a few others have responded to this, but I don't presently have time to read another 14 pages (I'm sure I will eventually), but I still want to reply to those who tagged/quoted me here.

You are ultimately correct. That is absolutely the end goal. But we aren't there yet. No matter how many of us want to be there, there are too many holdouts still in this country, that we are not there yet. That's why it's news in the first place, is because we are not there yet. And being there versus trying to get there does change the circumstances. As the first to really take this step in his kind of community within the NFL, Nassib coming out is a big deal. When the day comes that we have 100 openly LGBT+ players in the NFL, it no longer will be. At that point, you won't see news reports about it, you might not even get an Instagram post about it, and as such, you won't even really have the chance to say you don't care, because that will then be the accepted reality. But right now, it is a big deal. As such Nassib cares, a hell of a lot of other people care, and that makes stating that you don't care feel diminishing and dissenting.

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6 minutes ago, Dome said:

Matts: “Hey man, how you been!”

Friend: “Great! Big year for me. Came out to my family as gay, they’ve met my partner, it took a ton of courage but I’m finally being me.”

Matt: “I don’t care.”

Friend: “Oh. I mean yeah it was really hard for a lot of years. Living behind a mask, tiptoeing around your own family and friends, th—“

Matts: “Oh yeah totally good for you. I just mean it’s like choosing between tacos or burgers for dinner.”

Friend: “ ….. “

Matts: “Or like choosing a different magazine. You know? Sure you do, you lived it. But I get it to, I’m an ally. I don’t care. I. DONT. CARE.”

…..

Matts: *nailed it*

or, what @Matts4313is actually talking about instead of misrepresenting it


 

 

Friend: “Great! Big year for me. Came out to my family as gay, they’ve met my partner, it took a ton of courage but I’m finally being me.”

Matt: that’s cool, congrats man.

Friend: thanks. This isn’t going to change our relationship, is it.

Matts: of course not, I don’t care if you’re gay.

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8 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

That wasnt an analogy. That was an example of using a the phrase "i dont care" in a non-donkey way. It was also me teasing Malf. 

 

You used a scenario to compare two different uses of the phrase “I don’t care” and the purpose of that was to demonstrate that “I don’t care” is a non-donkey thing to say.

That’s what an analogy is.

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5 hours ago, Matts4313 said:

Although I agree with you in general, and I thought your post was fantastic, this logic is strange to me. Words have definition and meaning. I liken this to someone saying the word 'ignorant' is always negative. 

"Matts, can you tell me about 3rd century Russian philosophers" - "Nope, I am ignorant to that subject".

Matts, we were invited to a gay wedding. You wanna come" - "Sure, I dont care that they are gay"

 

In both instances, you are not being a donkey about anything. There are a lot of times that the words "I dont care" simply means it doesnt effect you nor does it impact your thinking about something or someone. It is absolutely possible to "not care" about someones race/religion/sexuality/political stance/whatever when you are discussing your relationship to that person. That is an entirely different stance than "not caring" about the trials and tribulations a person has to go through. I can "not care" that Carl is gay, while simultaneously "care" that he has had to hide it publicly for so long and that an entire community of people have had it much harder historically and presently.  

 

I think that is what is getting lost in translation over the past 30 pages. 

Words do have definition and meaning, but there are different types. You're ultimately thinking of denotation, you're thinking of the core, what does the dictionary say this word means, definition. But language  is far more nuanced and fluid than that. Words have tone, meanings change over time, and context can completely alter the meaning of a simple phrase. While you're stuck on denotation, the key to what I'm presenting here is connotation. It isn't what "I don't know" means, it's how "I don't know" feels. And it does have a feeling to it.

Someone beat me to it a page or two back, but this is very similar to the issue with the phrase "all lives matter." Users of the phrase would argue to the death that it is a good, true, and well-intentioned phrase. We should all, after all, think that all lives do matter. That should be an intrinsic truth to all empathic beings. But it shifts when it is being used as a response to "black lives matter," as it then becomes a counter, an argument against, a clap back.

Context matters. Who uses a phrase frequently and how they use it in a given time changes the feel that that phrase and those words have. And right now, that, in response to issues of difference, be it sexuality, gender, race, etc., presently has a dismissive connotation. I get what you mean. I truly do. I'm not going to argue that you don't mean what you tell me you mean, because if I just take the stance that you're a liar or a closeted homophobe or whatever, there is no dialogue to be had here. There is no progress in that. I just ask that you consider the difference between what you know you mean, and what someone hearing you say that will feel.

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7 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said:

or, what @Matts4313is actually talking about instead of misrepresenting it


 

 

Friend: “Great! Big year for me. Came out to my family as gay, they’ve met my partner, it took a ton of courage but I’m finally being me.”

Matt: that’s cool, congrats man.

Friend: thanks. This isn’t going to change our relationship, is it.

Matts: of course not, I don’t care if you’re gay.

 

This is the opposite of how you said it should be handled. 

 

4 hours ago, GSUeagles14 said:

If I were to think about it, If I were gay I’d be more offended by “I’m cool with that”.      Seems more like I’m giving permission for you to be gay honestly. 

 

@Matts4313 your guy is out here trying to make you look like a bigot.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Matts4313 said:

"You want tacos or burgers for dinner" "I dont care, up to you"

 

Nah, its pretty easy when you take the words at face value and not try to spin them with a political agenda. 😍

I knew this example would come up, I almost pre-emptively argued against it, but decided it detracted from what I actually had to say.

You are correct. This is the core example of a time where "I don't care" is a socially acceptable answer. This could apply to, "what do you want for dinner," "what do you want to do tonight," "what color do you think we should paint the bedroom," etc. Plenty of real life examples, absolutely.

The key difference here, is the subject of the conversation is you and your preference. The actual topic is about your opinion, about you caring, about what you want. Someone's sexuality isn't about you, it's about them. In the case of a public figure in a still controversial era like this, it's about those in similar situations to him as well. All those who will look up to him and gain courage and meaning from this, who do care. This is the difference between someone asking your preference, and you saying you don't care, which is an answer to a question about you, and someone telling you their preference, and you saying you don't care, at which point you're just kind of being rude. Carl Nassib isn't asking you if you'd rather him be gay or straight. Then it would be appropriate to say you don't care. He's telling you he is gay, and you're saying you don't care. Very crucial difference.

To take your example, this is more like if your wife says, "Hey, I want tacos for dinner," and you say "I don't care." Could mean you don't care what's for dinner. It could also mean that you don't care what your wife wants for dinner. The ambiguity creates a situation where you could still be being insensitive. And if your wife hears it as the latter, watch out.

No one is asking you if you care or what you prefer. If someone does, then yes, it becomes perfectly okay to say that you don't.

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11 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

I just ask that you consider the difference between what you know you mean, and what someone hearing you say that will feel.

Im not sure how read up you are, but I have said this statement (and the general vibe of your post) a dozen times already. I am in complete agreement with it.

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