Raiders DE Carl Nassib announces he's gay

[ronjon1990]

Other than potentially more players coming out, what's expected to be gained from this?

Like, practices and procedures or whatever as far as teams go, but also general public. Not to take away from Nassib, but the first real superstar to come out (and one absolutely will at some point) is going to be a megastar that alters how people see football. So what are some things you guys would like to see put in place or promoted moving forward? 

(No, not being condescending. I'm actually trying to explain to another friend the outsized impact this could have on how the league, teams, coaches, GMs, operate and handle this kind of thing moving forward). 

[Matts4313]

7 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

Carl Nassib isn't asking you if you'd rather him be gay or straight. Then it would be appropriate to say you don't care. He's telling you he is gay, and you're saying you don't care. Very crucial difference.

To be crystal clear, I, personally, am doing none of the things in your post. To the quoted point - I wasnt hypothetically speaking to Carl. I was speaking to a third party. So the the convo would be more "Hey, did you hear that Nassib is gay" and the response would be "Its 2021, people should not be judging based sexuality. We should all be accepting of race/religion/orientation. I know I dont care about someones sex life". 

[SkippyX]

3 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Other than potentially more players coming out, what's expected to be gained from this?

Like, practices and procedures or whatever as far as teams go, but also general public. Not to take away from Nassib, but the first real superstar to come out (and one absolutely will at some point) is going to be a megastar that alters how people see football. So what are some things you guys would like to see put in place or promoted moving forward? 

(No, not being condescending. I'm actually trying to explain to another friend the outsized impact this could have on how the league, teams, coaches, GMs, operate and handle this kind of thing moving forward). 

I will take a shot at this.

Its the first step in the normalization of a different type of person being publicly accepted in this profession.

Michael Sam was no Jackie Robinson on multiple levels (talent and mental toughness)

• This does not mean Michael Sam is a bad person, Jackie was a truly exceptional person perfect for his role.
• I think Sam was also forced in this role since a reporter was going to out him anyway.
• What he did still had value and helped, even if it took a pretty big toll on him.

Nassib is established, might be better suited to handle the game and the hype/hostility, and is better supported by the league, his team, and the country in 2021 vs 2014.

 

The point is that maybe 5 or 10 years from now other players don't have to hide or be ashamed of who they are.

[MrDrew]

2 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Other than potentially more players coming out, what's expected to be gained from this?

Like, practices and procedures or whatever as far as teams go, but also general public. Not to take away from Nassib, but the first real superstar to come out (and one absolutely will at some point) is going to be a megastar that alters how people see football. So what are some things you guys would like to see put in place or promoted moving forward? 

(No, not being condescending. I'm actually trying to explain to another friend the outsized impact this could have on how the league, teams, coaches, GMs, operate and handle this kind of thing moving forward). 

I honestly think it depends on how his teammates handle it. Some real nasty stuff is said down on the line, and he’s probably going to get a little roughed up for a while. If his team is letting him get harassed, it’s going to take things a few steps back. If they have his back like they would when a QB takes a big cheap shot, things will move forward. 
 

I hope he can still be their teammate.

[pwny]

13 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Other than potentially more players coming out, what's expected to be gained from this?

Like, practices and procedures or whatever as far as teams go, but also general public.

There's previously been reports of scouts asking players if they're gay, and has apparently been viewed by the players as if the idea of whether or not they are may impact their draft stock. So as this kind of thing becomes more normalized, I think you're going to see less of that. It's possible that as more barriers like this are broken down and normalized that other inherent biases may fall by the wayside as well. The more people like Nassib come out and are able to feel assimilated into a locker room and accepted, the more that other players are obviously going to feel safe to be themselves.

Nassib did this in a way that a lot of attention got focused on his donation to The Trevor Project. Getting their name out into the world is going to do a lot of good that can't be measured. They're the largest organization in the world working to combat LGBT+ suicide and related issues. They're going to get more donations and more at risk youth are going to know that they have a place to turn. Those same kids now have another person to look up to; The Trevor Project found that 80% of LGBT+ youth believe that seeing LGBT+ representation in the form of famous people positively impacts their personal wellbeing. He's not a superstar, but this helps affirm for those kids that their differences wont stop them from making it in the "hyper masculine" arena that is the NFL. If we can get kids to see their worth and realize that their differences are worth celebrating, we can make some real difference in the general public.

[SkippyX]

To use an analogy.

Warren Moon was ready to be an NFL QB in 1978 but the league was fighting against him.

Moon had to play in the CFL for 5 years until 1984.

• In 1985 Randall Cunningham with his speed, rocket arm, and even top level punting went 37th overall.
• 10 years later Steve McNair went number 3 overall
• In 2001 Vick went #1 overall.

No one cares what you look like at QB anymore, but it had to start somewhere.

[ronjon1990]

Just now, pwny said:

There's previously been reports of scouts asking players if they're gay, and has apparently been viewed by the players as if the idea of whether or not they are may impact their draft stock. So as this kind of thing becomes more normalized, I think you're going to see less of that.

That's a big one I hadn't thought about. 

[Matts4313]

4 minutes ago, MrDrew said:

Some real nasty stuff is said down on the line, and he’s probably going to get a little roughed up for a while.

I think the opposite. I think he probably heard a lot more homophobic slurs before he came out. Its like the Louis CK joke "I would never call someone a f** if I knew they were gay".

Maybe I am an optimist, but I foresee a lot more insults based around his mother than his orientation. 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 minute ago, Matts4313 said:

I think the opposite. I think he probably heard a lot more homophobic slurs before he came out. Its like the Louis CK joke "I would never call someone a f** if I knew they were gay".

Maybe I am an optimist, but I foresee a lot more insults based around his mother than his orientation. 

I want to believe this too, but….

[PossibleCabbage]

It's sincerely my hope that in the next few years professional athletes can just be as open about their sexual orientations and gender identities as they want to be and it's just not a big deal.  There have always been guys who came out after they were done, and guys have been various levels of coy about their personal relationships, but if a guy comes out and it's just NBD then that's good progress.

[ramssuperbowl99]

22 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Other than potentially more players coming out, what's expected to be gained from this?

Exposure, and that's incredibly valuable. 

Anti-gay parents have a much tougher time indoctrinating their children about how "evil" homosexuality is when kids have a gay role model to look up to that acts just like the straight ones. It's tough to see the benefits because they show up years later, or even a generation removed, but it's an incredibly important portion of outreach to homophobic communities. 

[GSUeagles14]

34 minutes ago, Dome said:

 

This is the opposite of how you said it should be handled. 

 

 

@Matts4313 your guy is out here trying to make you look like a bigot.

 

 

 

i thought you said you didnt do bad faith arguments. Its very clear what i was saying, and even if you for some reason didnt understand, saying thats cool isnt the same as "im cool with that". If for some reason you were still struggling and confused, you could look for more context and in that little exchange, the gay person specically asked if it would effect their relationship after "matts" said thats cool. So did all this escape you or you lied and are a fan of bad faith arguments. Im guessing the latter, right?

[MrDrew]

11 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

I think the opposite. I think he probably heard a lot more homophobic slurs before he came out. Its like the Louis CK joke "I would never call someone a f** if I knew they were gay".

Maybe I am an optimist, but I foresee a lot more insults based around his mother than his orientation. 

I really do hope it’s that way, but I don’t have enough faith in people to believe that it will be

[GSUeagles14]

54 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Lol. You never cease to amaze me. Your ability to spin conversations and create an imaginary narrative is unmatched. 

PS: I also never said the phrase "I dont care". So you couldnt even make it to my 'first response' before you strawmanned and created a completely delusional scenario. No wonder pwny was so quick to like it, he does the same. 😉

You must be mistaken. @Dome made a big deal about how he would never use a bad faith argument about something like that, but that is exactly what he appeared to have done. There must be some mistake, as your point was exceedingly obvious.

 

 

[GSUeagles14]

50 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

Words do have definition and meaning, but there are different types. You're ultimately thinking of denotation, you're thinking of the core, what does the dictionary say this word means, definition. But language  is far more nuanced and fluid than that. Words have tone, meanings change over time, and context can completely alter the meaning of a simple phrase. While you're stuck on denotation, the key to what I'm presenting here is connotation. It isn't what "I don't know" means, it's how "I don't know" feels. And it does have a feeling to it.

Someone beat me to it a page or two back, but this is very similar to the issue with the phrase "all lives matter." Users of the phrase would argue to the death that it is a good, true, and well-intentioned phrase. We should all, after all, think that all lives do matter. That should be an intrinsic truth to all empathic beings. But it shifts when it is being used as a response to "black lives matter," as it then becomes a counter, an argument against, a clap back.

Context matters. Who uses a phrase frequently and how they use it in a given time changes the feel that that phrase and those words have. And right now, that, in response to issues of difference, be it sexuality, gender, race, etc., presently has a dismissive connotation. I get what you mean. I truly do. I'm not going to argue that you don't mean what you tell me you mean, because if I just take the stance that you're a liar or a closeted homophobe or whatever, there is no dialogue to be had here. There is no progress in that. I just ask that you consider the difference between what you know you mean, and what someone hearing you say that will feel.

I get what youre saying, but heres how ill respond and I had a long and unfortunate back and forth with @pwny before I realized he wasnt interested in a real discussion. Like you said, context matters and certainly in the real world context would heavily weigh in on how I respond. But i have two friends, who may be in the minority but thats moot, that dont want any kind of special or different treatment. Being gay is just a normal thing in their eyes and dont want to be treated differently in any way. They dont want to be told theyre brave for saying their gay, or that "I'm here for you". Both of them welcome the "i dont care that youre gay". Im sure theres plenty others that feel the way they do. Are their feelings invalid, or do we just ignore what they prefer? Im sure theres a large group in the LGBTQ community that would laugh that this is such a discussion and just want to live their life. As Ive said from the beginning almost, I dont think theres one way of answering that would make everyone feel comfortable. And quite frankly, if its only based on "cover" for bigots and homphones then unfortunately i dont think youre giving those folks enough credit to where they wouldnt be able to change a couple words around, as simple as going from "i dont care that youre gay" to "im cool with you being gay" (which still seems way more offensive).