Raiders DE Carl Nassib announces he's gay

[pwny]

1 minute ago, Matts4313 said:

For the record, because I dont like liars, I havent said a bunch of that. Carry on. 

No, you did. You did exactly that.

 

Here's you saying that intent is the only thing you're going to judge anyone's message on when defending the "I don't care" side

Then here's you telling the other side that our intent doesn't matter, but that we need to look at the way others are responding.

 

 

Heres some more examples too, so you can't spin it as just a one time misunderstanding.

Here's you saying that the issue is that we are coming across as bullies:

Here's you saying that the tone is the problem, not the message:

 

And now some examples for you saying intent is the only thing we should focus on

Here's you saying you are specifically defending people solely because of their intent

Also, I find it amusing that you explicitly said you're defending people, but now today you're laughing at the idea that someone suggested you are defending people. Amazing.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 minute ago, minutemancl said:

Interesting; I remember cyber bullying being a big problem for my class in middle school, which was the late-2000s; more like 15 years ago. Myspace and AIM caused so many problems that they had to hold assemblies talking about the 'dangers' of them. I imagine smartphones introduced additional problems too though.

Further proof MWil is just an old, out of touch geezer 😂 

As if the extensive collection of new balances weren’t enough….

[Matts4313]

1 minute ago, pwny said:

blah blah more rhetoric/spinning/taking things out of context. 

Please stop tagging me. I dont appreciate your cyber stalking. 

[pwny]

Just now, Matts4313 said:

Please stop tagging me. I dont appreciate your cyber stalking. 

I don't care.

[MWil23]

5 minutes ago, Tk3 said:

I fully get where you are coming from and relate to this, and I've learned that my response is "growth" and "humility"

Things change as we learn and evolve, and its up to us to learn and evolve with them. As to your first point, it may be different as a teacher or an authority figure, but I've generally found that people are pretty open and forgiving to mistakes (if they are genuine) as long as your response is an apology a promise that you will do better to understand.

It's almost a certainty that some of us are going to be behind and trying to keep up with what is the right thing. Several years ago I had no idea what "non-binary" was or "cisgender" or a ton of other current terms. I didn't know the correct terms or approaches to certain conversations. I had used words like "lifestyle" and "preference" in the past, without meaning to be saying the wrong thing. (And I am 100% certain that I still don't know correctly everything at this moment and will make mistakes again - hell, maybe even in this thread). But you live, you talk with people and learn their stories, you maybe make mistakes, and you learn.

If I mixup something and someone corrects me, my response is some form of "sorry, I didn't know that. I'll remember that" or "sorry, I didn't realize you prefered that. Thanks for teaching me" or some variation to acknowledge the issue and show that I care.

The problem is digging in, being defensive, refusing to acknowledge the mistake, or pretending like its all the same to you.

Just my 2 cents. It's hard, but its up to us to do the work as well.

Oh, yeah I understand what you are saying. Here’s my issue:

Our school has not taken a stance on cisgender/non-binary, meaning that we haven’t explicitly said whether or not we should email/phone home (names for instance, as well as how a student identifies).

So, do you back the student or the parent who may not or does not support their child (legally since the student is a minor)? Everyone says back the student, but yet administrators and school boards hold all the power.

Plus, something I really stepped into without knowing, was a kid who came out to me and said “call me ———“, and I used that name in correspondence Home, inadvertently outing that student. Stuff like that has lasting ramifications for our kids and us as professionals. It’s really hard to navigate on these types of things. That was more or less my point.

[MWil23]

4 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Further proof MWil is just an old, out of touch geezer 😂 

As if the extensive collection of new balances weren’t enough….

I have one pair of turf shoes!!!!!! 😂😂😂

[Matts4313]

6 minutes ago, minutemancl said:

Interesting; I remember cyber bullying being a big problem for my class in middle school, which was the late-2000s; more like 15 years ago. Myspace and AIM caused so many problems that they had to hold assemblies talking about the 'dangers' of them. I imagine smartphones introduced additional problems too though.

According to Wiki it became popular in the 2010s. I would imagine the growth in apps like snapchat that allow you to say mean stuff and it erases would further the issue. Tying it to the thread, it is probably one of the reasons it is extra difficult for youth with various orientations. How easy would it be to harass someone and then vanquish into anonymity? 

Not to mention all the hate speech that is popular in video games. Those teens are pretty awful to eachother behind the xbox profiles. 

[pwny]

6 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Plus, something I really stepped into without knowing, was a kid who came out to me and said “call me ———“, and I used that name in correspondence Home, inadvertently outing that student. Stuff like that has lasting ramifications for our kids and us as professionals. It’s really hard to navigate on these types of things. That was more or less my point.

Stuff like this is really hard.

I don’t know what email system you use, and don’t really know if it’s possible given laws on what you can and can’t ask, but a good number of email systems allow you to create a form letter intro that you can set up for specific contacts. If you are allowed to ask the student what they prefer you address them as when talking to a parent, you may be able to create the intro for that contact so that it inserts the right name to use in that context. Obviously in person meetings might also pose this risk, but just one suggestion to help mitigate some of the risk going forward.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

3 minutes ago, pwny said:

Stuff like this is really hard.

I don’t know what email system you use, and don’t really know if it’s possible given laws on what you can and can’t ask, but a good number of email systems allow you to create a form letter intro that you can set up for specific contacts. If you are allowed to ask the student what they prefer you address them as when talking to a parent, you may be able to create the intro for that contact so that it inserts the right name to use in that context. Obviously in person meetings might also pose this risk, but just one suggestion to help mitigate some of the risk going forward.

Or just ask if their parents know.

[Matts4313]

18 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Oh, yeah I understand what you are saying. Here’s my issue:

Our school has not taken a stance on cisgender/non-binary, meaning that we haven’t explicitly said whether or not we should email/phone home (names for instance, as well as how a student identifies).

So, do you back the student or the parent who may not or does not support their child (legally since the student is a minor)? Everyone says back the student, but yet administrators and school boards hold all the power.

Plus, something I really stepped into without knowing, was a kid who came out to me and said “call me ———“, and I used that name in correspondence Home, inadvertently outing that student. Stuff like that has lasting ramifications for our kids and us as professionals. It’s really hard to navigate on these types of things. That was more or less my point.

How does that apply to using "Mr." or "Ms." and using a last name? Is that acceptable in this scenario or no?

You can probably only type so many "your child" instead of "John/Jane" in an email. I assume the most "CYA" method is for a teacher to use legal names that the child is registered with, but I understand how the student might not prefer that. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Matts4313

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

2 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

How does that apply to using "Mr." or "Ms." and using a last name? Is that acceptable in this scenario or no?

You can probably only type so many "your child" instead of "John/Jane" in an email. I assume the most "CYA" method is for a teacher to use legal names that the child is registered with, but I understand how the student might not prefer that. 

I’m assuming the issue there would be potentially identifying which child if they have multiple kids in the school.

Many parents don’t know each teacher’s name.

[MWil23]

8 minutes ago, pwny said:

Stuff like this is really hard.

I don’t know what email system you use, and don’t really know if it’s possible given laws on what you can and can’t ask, but a good number of email systems allow you to create a form letter intro that you can set up for specific contacts. If you are allowed to ask the student what they prefer you address them as when talking to a parent, you may be able to create the intro for that contact so that it inserts the right name to use in that context. Obviously in person meetings might also pose this risk, but just one suggestion to help mitigate some of the risk going forward.

I suggested building wide a form that asks every student the following 3 questions.

1. Do you go by a name other than the name on our roster?

2. If yes, what? (Type here)

3. What name would you like me to use when corresponding with home?

[pwny]

15 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I suggested building wide a form that asks every student the following 3 questions.

1. Do you go by a name other than the name on our roster?

2. If yes, what? (Type here)

3. What name would you like me to use when corresponding with home?

This seems like a pretty obvious thing to do. Even outside of trans kids, there’s always been kids who have wanted to go by a nickname or their middle name, so like it’s not even just a trans only issue that should be controversial in any way to anybody. If they don’t outright tell you not to do it, I’d do it if it was me; as easy as it is for me to say it from the outside.

I’m just big on systems to help take some of the human error out of it. It’s so easy to just think of a person as the name you call them in every day life and forget that there’s another given name that has to be used in certain settings. It’s a far, far lower stakes thing, but on an official document that we had to send to the IRS, I had to put one of my coworker’s name on it as seen on their PTIN and I wrote Letty instead of Leticia. It got rejected and I had to resubmit it, but like ultimately that mistake didn’t matter. I imagine doing the same thing with a kid who you know as one gendered name but has to go by another name with their parents has gotta be equally as likely, and a ridiculously higher stakes thing if you mess it up. 

[otg]

28 minutes ago, Tk3 said:

I fully get where you are coming from and relate to this, and I've learned that my response is "growth" and "humility"

Things change as we learn and evolve, and its up to us to learn and evolve with them. As to your first point, it may be different as a teacher or an authority figure, but I've generally found that people are pretty open and forgiving to mistakes (if they are genuine) as long as your response is an apology a promise that you will do better to understand.

It's almost a certainty that some of us are going to be behind and trying to keep up with what is the right thing. Several years ago I had no idea what "non-binary" was or "cisgender" or a ton of other current terms. I didn't know the correct terms or approaches to certain conversations. I had used words like "lifestyle" and "preference" in the past, without meaning to be saying the wrong thing. (And I am 100% certain that I still don't know correctly everything at this moment and will make mistakes again - hell, maybe even in this thread). But you live, you talk with people and learn their stories, you maybe make mistakes, and you learn.

If I mixup something and someone corrects me, my response is some form of "sorry, I didn't know that. I'll remember that" or "sorry, I didn't realize you prefered that. Thanks for teaching me" or some variation to acknowledge the issue and show that I care.

The problem is digging in, being defensive, refusing to acknowledge the mistake, or pretending like its all the same to you.

Just my 2 cents. It's hard, but its up to us to do the work as well.

"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

~Vince Lombardi~

There are so many excellent posters here. That's been my experience from haunting this site for nearly 20 years. But then this thread happened and I fell in love with you all over again.

Special thanks to the three of you who have shared very personal experiences here. I won't name you because I'm too lazy to go back and find the name that I can't remember.

and now for levity

I care about other people's sex lives. I hope they are fulfilling and satisfying for all involved, as long as no one gets hurt. Unless you're into that sort of thing...

[mission27]

42 minutes ago, Tk3 said:

The problem is digging in, being defensive, refusing to acknowledge the mistake, or pretending like its all the same to you.

 

Yeah absolutely.  But that's human nature.  Most people don't react well to being told that what they just said was insensitive.  We can all try to be more open minded but its also on those who claim to hold the moral and intellectual high ground to not abdicate responsibility for fostering a more constructive conversation on these issues just because its more satisfying to tell someone they are wrong.

Whenever I see someone overzealously going off on the internet about some phraseology I assume they are just scratching that itch to correct and virtue signal, not actually trying to make a positive difference.