notthatbluestuff Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 It's Aaron Donald and then the rest - but who are the rest, and in what order? I framed this question as "pass rushers" so you're free to list tackles, ends, linebackers etc as long as they're known for rushing the passer with excellence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 Well, my prediction for 2021, excluding Donald... 1. Myles Garrett 2. T.J. Watt 3. Joey Bosa 4. Chase Young 5. Nick Bosa 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 3 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said: Well, my prediction for 2021, excluding Donald... 1. Myles Garrett 2. T.J. Watt 3. Joey Bosa 4. Chase Young 5. Nick Bosa Ummm Danielle Hunter much? If Nick Bosa gets a pass after missing all of last year why would Danielle Hunter not get similar treatment? By the way Nick Bosa has 9 sacks in his career, Danielle Hunter has 54.4 and 14.5 each of the past two seasons before missing all of 2020. So excluding Donald lets go TJ Watt Danielle Hunter Myles Garrett Joey Bosa Chase Young Oh and by the way everyone is instantly Myles Garrett, Myles Garrett as the best pass rusher outside Donald. But he is only one year younger than Danielle Hunter and Hunter has had a better sack record than Myles Garrett and was at a higher level before he got hurt and he gets way more tackles than Garrett does as well usually. By the way the Browns improved their DL by adding Clowney, Malik Jackson, Billings, Togai etc. But Vikings made similar improvements by adding Dalvin Tomlinson, Sheldon Richardson, Weatherly and drafting Patrick Jones, Janarius Robinson, Jaylen Twyman and Michael Pierce will be back as well after opting out last year. Sure Clowney is huge for the Browns but if he gets hurt could argue Vikings have improved that DL more especially if one or two of the younger guys produce which should make Hunter even better. Khalil Mack is an amazing player as well, and JPP was great last year but is getting older. But sack production of guys like Leonard Wililams and Tuitt on the DE spot in a 3/4 is very impressive. Hicks does similar destruction for the Bears but does not always get the sack numbers. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matts4313 Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 Are we ready to put Chase Young that high? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 43 minutes ago, Ozzy said: Ummm Danielle Hunter much? If Nick Bosa gets a pass after missing all of last year why would Danielle Hunter not get similar treatment? By the way Nick Bosa has 9 sacks in his career, Danielle Hunter has 54.4 and 14.5 each of the past two seasons before missing all of 2020. Honestly, I struggled between Young, Nick Bosa, and Hunter. They’d all be in my top 6. I just went with the younger guys in this case due to more potential upside (though Hunter only turns 27 mid season) vs. what has been done historically. And yeah, definitely not just looking at sacks when it comes to my personal top pass rushers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 41 minutes ago, Matts4313 said: Are we ready to put Chase Young that high? I mean... And he was playing through a groin injury during the first half of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 10 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said: Honestly, I struggled between Young, Nick Bosa, and Hunter. They’d all be in my top 6. I just went with the younger guys in this case due to more potential upside (though Hunter only turns 27 mid season) vs. what has been done historically. And yeah, definitely not just looking at sacks when it comes to my personal top pass rushers. Myles Garrett was born in December 29 1995, Danielle Hunter was born October 29 1994, yeah Hunter will turn 27 this year and Garrett will turn 26, who cares. Sure some might think they are worlds apart in age and Garrett has so much more potential but honestly that is not the case, and Danielle Hunter was the youngest player in the draft when he came out I believe and in 2015 his rookie year was the youngest player in the NFL. So yeah Garrett still has some upside and potential but Hunter absolutely does and again is more proven as a player and has been more productive. There is no struggle, Chase Young and Nick Bosa are not as good as Danielle Hunter is until they prove it and Danielle play falls off which I doubt will occur this year but will see. Also Chase which I agree should be way up there, but he benefits greatly from having Sweat opposite him on the DL along with Allen and Payne on the inside who all together for probably the best overall DL in the NFL. The Vikings have improved their DL greatly but still not sure they are on that same level across the board especially if one only looks at the four starters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 2 hours ago, Ozzy said: Myles Garrett was born in December 29 1995, Danielle Hunter was born October 29 1994, yeah Hunter will turn 27 this year and Garrett will turn 26, who cares. Sure some might think they are worlds apart in age and Garrett has so much more potential but honestly that is not the case, and Danielle Hunter was the youngest player in the draft when he came out I believe and in 2015 his rookie year was the youngest player in the NFL. So yeah Garrett still has some upside and potential but Hunter absolutely does and again is more proven as a player and has been more productive. There is no struggle, Chase Young and Nick Bosa are not as good as Danielle Hunter is until they prove it and Danielle play falls off which I doubt will occur this year but will see. Also Chase which I agree should be way up there, but he benefits greatly from having Sweat opposite him on the DL along with Allen and Payne on the inside who all together for probably the best overall DL in the NFL. The Vikings have improved their DL greatly but still not sure they are on that same level across the board especially if one only looks at the four starters. I was referring to Young vs. Bosa vs. Hunter when it comes to age. Hunter has obviously outproduced both so far in their respective careers, but I would prefer both Young and Bosa on my team this upcoming season. Hunter is a beast though, and I wouldn't argue with anyone who has him top 3, let alone top 5. It's just my opinion on how I think this upcoming season will play out as it relates to these guys. I think Garrett will be the clear-cut best EDGE pass rusher in the league this season, if he can finally play all 16 games. Regardless of who Washington has around him, Chase Young was still double-teamed at one of the highest rates in the league last season. Not sure the same could be said for Hunter in his prior seasons. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 19 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said: I was referring to Young vs. Bosa vs. Hunter when it comes to age. Hunter has obviously outproduced both so far in their respective careers, but I would prefer both Young and Bosa on my team this upcoming season. Hunter is a beast though, and I wouldn't argue with anyone who has him top 3, let alone top 5. It's just my opinion on how I think this upcoming season will play out as it relates to these guys. I think Garrett will be the clear-cut best EDGE pass rusher in the league this season, if he can finally play all 16 games. Regardless of who Washington has around him, Chase Young was still double-teamed at one of the highest rates in the league last season. Not sure the same could be said for Hunter in his prior seasons. Apparently in 2020 JJ Watt was double teamed 30% of the time which was more than any other edge rusher. https://sports.yahoo.com/espn-says-j-j-watt-170223933.html Then you have Aaron Donald who in 2019 was doubled 70% of the time which makes anything in the 30% range look like a joke. https://theramswire.usatoday.com/2020/11/05/rams-aaron-donald-double-team-rate-pass-rush/ Then this says Za-Darius Smith was the most double teamed edge rusher in 2019, not sure he is that great but in 2019 stats said it. https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2019/12/12/packers-olb-zadarius-smith-has-been-nfls-most-double-teamed-edge-rusher/ So stats can mess one up, not sure Chase Young was double teamed more than anyone in the NFL last year. Sure he got doubled a lot, usually the teams best edge rusher regardless gets double teamed if he is any good. Then you got this one as well. PS Chase Young is the only one on that list with a teammate also on the list during that season, so to say who is around him has nothing to do with his success, well it kind of does and great for Washington. Granted Garrett will have that now with Clowney who could greatly help him as well, so will see what happens. Granted he could blow up if Clowney stays healthy, but so could Hunter if he is back healthy and some other guys step on on that Viking DL. Either way not having Danielle Hunter in the top 5 edge rushers in the NFL is a massive massive oversight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 Back again to the issue of who is around you on the DL, with Hunter if some of the young guys hit and are productive players that could be a monster DL in Minnesota. If Twyman can become an productive interior pass rusher, if Tomlinson takes his game to the next level which I think he can and he has sneaking pass rush potential as well. If Wonnum continues to improve on what he showed as a rookie. If Pierce comes back healthy and strong in the middle, if Weatherly can get back to from like the year he left Minnesota, if Richardson can produce an interior pass rush. Then especially if Patrick Jones, Janarius Robinson, Kenney Willekes or even Hercules Mata'afa can produce as a pass rusher that could be a scary group. Not to even mention James Lynch who has a lot of potential as does Jordon Scott inside but granted many of these guys will be cut but would be hard to find any team in the NFL with more overall depth on the DL coming into camp. DE Danielle Hunter/ Patrick Jones II/ Kenny Willekes / Hercules Mata'afa / Jordan Brailford DT Sheldon Richardson/ Jaylen Twyman / Armon Watts DT Dalvin Tomlinson/ Michael Pierce / James Lynch / Jordon Scott DE Stephen Weatherly/ D.J. Wonnum/ Janarius Robinson/ Jayln Holmes The potential of guys like Robinson, Twyman, Wonnum and Patrick Jones is huge, especially with the already improved interior with Richardson and Tomlinson. Who knows if Twyman is better than Watts right now but doubt he could clear waivers if he was cut, same with Janarius Robinson if he was cut. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matts4313 Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said: I mean... And he was playing through a groin injury during the first half of the season. Wasnt he double teamed in the same ball park as most DEs? I think the average is generally around ~18% and he was near 20%? I looked at the charts during a DLaw debate a couple weeks ago, so I might be wrong. I guess I was just pointing out that he has 1 year of good production. Might want to wait a bit before putting him top 5. Edited July 4, 2021 by Matts4313 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Ozzy said: Apparently in 2020 JJ Watt was double teamed 30% of the time which was more than any other edge rusher. https://sports.yahoo.com/espn-says-j-j-watt-170223933.html Then you have Aaron Donald who in 2019 was doubled 70% of the time which makes anything in the 30% range look like a joke. https://theramswire.usatoday.com/2020/11/05/rams-aaron-donald-double-team-rate-pass-rush/ Then this says Za-Darius Smith was the most double teamed edge rusher in 2019, not sure he is that great but in 2019 stats said it. https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2019/12/12/packers-olb-zadarius-smith-has-been-nfls-most-double-teamed-edge-rusher/ So stats can mess one up, not sure Chase Young was double teamed more than anyone in the NFL last year. Sure he got doubled a lot, usually the teams best edge rusher regardless gets double teamed if he is any good. Not sure what the point of posting all this was? I never said Young was double-teamed more than anyone else in the NFL last year. 1 hour ago, Ozzy said: Then you got this one as well. PS Chase Young is the only one on that list with a teammate also on the list during that season, so to say who is around him has nothing to do with his success, well it kind of does and great for Washington. Granted Garrett will have that now with Clowney who could greatly help him as well, so will see what happens. Granted he could blow up if Clowney stays healthy, but so could Hunter if he is back healthy and some other guys step on on that Viking DL. Either way not having Danielle Hunter in the top 5 edge rushers in the NFL is a massive massive oversight. A double team is a double team. I don't care how many good players you have around you, if you still have to beat two blockers more often than most other EDGE players in the league, that puts you at a disadvantage when it comes to accumulating stats. I also think you're conveniently forgetting the fact that having other good/great players alongside you on the DL can easily take away from your stats as well (e.g., if they get to the QB first). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 35 minutes ago, Matts4313 said: Wasnt he double teamed in the same ball park as most DEs? I think the average is generally around ~18% and he was near 20%? I looked at the charts during a DLaw debate a couple weeks ago, so I might be wrong. The point was that he was one of the few that was top 10 in both double-team rate and pass rush win rate last season. The other guys on that list are all considered elite pass rushers. 37 minutes ago, Matts4313 said: I guess I was just pointing out that he has 1 year of good production. Might want to wait a bit before putting him top 5. I thought this was a projection thread? Elite talents at the position tend to explode statistically in their 2nd seasons. See JJ Watt (5.5 sacks as a rookie to 20.5 sacks in Year 2), Khalil Mack (4 sacks as a rookie to 15 sacks in Year 2), Von Miller (11.5 sacks as a rookie to 18.5 sacks in Year 2), etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 Just now, HTTRDynasty said: Not sure what the point of posting all this was? I never said Young was double-teamed more than anyone else in the NFL last year. A double team is a double team. I don't care how many good players you have around you, if you still have to beat two blockers more often than most other EDGE players in the league, that puts you at a disadvantage when it comes to accumulating stats. I also think you're conveniently forgetting the fact that having other good/great players alongside you on the DL can easily take away from your stats as well (e.g., if they get to the QB first). Maybe, but you are also conveniently forgetting the fact that Danielle Hunter is a superior player compared to Chase Young, Nick Bosa and probably even Myles Garrett yet you do not include him in your top 5. Did Chase Young in the lineup increase the production of Montez Sweat, probably but Sweat had 7 sacks the year before as well and to pretend Jonathan Allen and Payne on the inside mean nothing to edge rushers, give me a break. Those two DTs are arguably as good as any two DTs in any 4/3 in the league. Mind you playing a true 4/3 DE spot I feel is a bit harder than playing in a 3/4 as a OLB edge rushers, because the 4/3 DE has to play the run and be a lot more solid at the point of attack. So in that regard is hard to even rank 3/4 OLBs along with true 4/3 DEs, yet some of those 3/4 OLBs are used a ton of coverage and still rush and others are not used in coverage much at all. Either way to me there is no question Washington has the best true DL in the league in terms of four starters, does that have a lot to do with Chase Young in the group, sure but it also has a lot to do with who is around him and all are helped by each other. No way one guy is like damn I wish I was on a less talented group so I could get more stats in garbage time. The real thing is that D kind of sucked last year outside of the DL because of injuries at LB and inconsistency in the secondary but they held up well enough. Benefited greatly by the play a Curl a 7th round pick and Holcomb who played great for not a really big time prospect at all, also Moreland was a steal in the 7th round also for them so they hit big time late in the rounds getting some of those guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matts4313 Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 3 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said: The point was that he was one of the few that was top 10 in both double-team rate and pass rush win rate last season. The other guys on that list are all considered elite pass rushers. I thought this was a projection thread? Elite talents at the position tend to explode statistically in their 2nd seasons. See JJ Watt (5.5 sacks as a rookie to 20.5 sacks in Year 2), Khalil Mack (4 sacks as a rookie to 15 sacks in Year 2), Von Miller (11.5 sacks as a rookie to 18.5 sacks in Year 2), etc. I dunno. Call me skeptical. DLaw was top 5 in those in 2019 and I didnt consider him to be an elite pass rusher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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