BobbyPhil1781 Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 (edited) This is an on-going debate in another forum so why not bring it here. Fairly self-explanatory: Do you agree or disagree that wins and losses should be credited to the QB when they don't even play on one side of the ball and most don't even call plays? I'm finding it hard to put all the success and blame on one guy. Is he the most important piece of the offense? Absolutely. Does he inadvertently help the defense by sustained drives and not turning the ball over? Absolutely. The same can be said for the defense though. Field position, forcing turnovers, etc helps the offense just as much. As stated above as well, most QBs don't even call their own plays so if you have some whack coach, which we all know exist, why does the QB get punished for their horrible play calling? I get that "it's just the way it is" but I'm hoping we can apply some critical thinking here. I tried searching for a thread that might already have this discussion and came up empty. I don't ever come in here so if this has been recently discussed, please link me to the thread. Thoughts? Edited July 16, 2021 by BobbyPhil1781 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bad Example Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 10 minutes ago, BobbyPhil1781 said: This is an on-going debate in another forum so why not bring it here. Fairly self-explanatory: Do you agree or disagree that wins and losses should be credited to the QB when they don't even play on one side of the ball and most don't even call plays? I'm finding it hard to put all the success and blame on one guy. Is he the most important piece of the offense? Absolutely. Does he inadvertently help the defense by sustained drives and not turning the ball over? Absolutely. The same can be said for the defense though. Field position, forcing turnovers, etc helps the offense just as much. As stated above as well, most QBs don't even call their own plays so if you have some whack coach, which we all know exist, why does the QB get punished for their horrible play calling? I get that "it's just the way it is" but I'm hoping we can apply some critical thinking here. I tried searching for a thread that might already have this discussion and came up empty. I don't ever come in here so if this has been recently discussed, please link me to the thread. Thoughts? The comparison here is to goalies and pitchers, both of who have person W/L records. So the question is what's the tipping point of "responsiblity" for a team's fate? I think it's fair to point out that while all 3 positions only play one side of the ball, in football there is a significant "third side" in special teams, which can deliver game-changing/winning plays in addition to whatever the defense is or isn't doing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas492 Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 I think it should be a stat. No doubt. Comebacks, too. Far too often QB's are judged on stats. One that comes to mind is Prescott. Last year prior to the injury. He put up unreal stats, and I think a lot of it was due to being behind big time in the second half when defenses were playing very soft coverages. This is not a rip on Prescott at all (I feel he is very good), just highlighting that it is easy to fill the stat column as a QB when playing catch up as the defenses are playing very soft coverages. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incognito_man Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 It shouldn't be tracked for QBs at all. I have never once given it a passing consideration other than thinking less of anyone (and their argument) when it's used as evidence of something. It's no more a curiosity for me than a DLman's "record". 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyPhil1781 Posted July 16, 2021 Author Share Posted July 16, 2021 37 minutes ago, Mr Bad Example said: The comparison here is to goalies and pitchers, both of who have person W/L records. So the question is what's the tipping point of "responsiblity" for a team's fate? I think it's fair to point out that while all 3 positions only play one side of the ball, in football there is a significant "third side" in special teams, which can deliver game-changing/winning plays in addition to whatever the defense is or isn't doing. Exactly and I did leave out ST and that's an error on my part. Even more evidence to suggest W/Ls are not a QB stat. Factor is guys like Devin Hester when he was in his prime and he absolutely changed games by himself and made punters very nervous. I don't agree that goalies and pitchers should shoulder that either. I feel like we agree here but I think you're looking at it like "if not the QB, then who?" and I just feel the wordage should be changed. Just my opinion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyPhil1781 Posted July 16, 2021 Author Share Posted July 16, 2021 28 minutes ago, vegas492 said: I think it should be a stat. No doubt. Comebacks, too. Far too often QB's are judged on stats. One that comes to mind is Prescott. Last year prior to the injury. He put up unreal stats, and I think a lot of it was due to being behind big time in the second half when defenses were playing very soft coverages. This is not a rip on Prescott at all (I feel he is very good), just highlighting that it is easy to fill the stat column as a QB when playing catch up as the defenses are playing very soft coverages. Comebacks are only a portion of the game though. You can still give someone credit for a comeback win as there is far less factors in play. At times, it will still be unwarranted though but far less than an entire body of work which is the game itself. All other stats can be misleading as well but I want to keep this strictly about wins and losses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyPhil1781 Posted July 16, 2021 Author Share Posted July 16, 2021 Wow, I just voted in the poll to see the results and I'm kinda shocked that it's so heavy on one side. I thought it would be the opposite TBH. This is good IMO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar12 Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 11 minutes ago, BobbyPhil1781 said: Wow, I just voted in the poll to see the results and I'm kinda shocked that it's so heavy on one side. I thought it would be the opposite TBH. This is good IMO Now if this was a twitter, IG poll it would’ve been much different lol. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bad Example Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 17 minutes ago, BobbyPhil1781 said: I feel like we agree here but I think you're looking at it like "if not the QB, then who?" and I just feel the wordage should be changed. Just my opinion Oh, no, I view QB W/L record as interesting but for the most part not relevant. I'd take Stafford over all but the uber-elite (and he's probably as talented as any of those players, as well) even though his W/L is not great - because he was saddled with carrying a garbage franchise. QB is somewhere between G/P (basically the absolute most important part of the defense) and an NBA team's best player (LeBron has been the best player in the league, much less his team, for his career, and his W/L record is, at best, a curiosity). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trentwannabe Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 If my math is right, the Bills had 82 wins from the 2006 season through the 2017 season. Id say maybe 10 of those were because of good or great QB play. A majority was because of great defense and special teams. Yet, those wins count all the same for the different QBs that played. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeotheLion Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 The QB has the biggest impact on winning or losing over any other player. I think it matters but it's never the end all be all. There's certainly better stats that would determine did the QB play put the team in a position to win the game. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyPhil1781 Posted July 16, 2021 Author Share Posted July 16, 2021 1 hour ago, Trentwannabe said: If my math is right, the Bills had 82 wins from the 2006 season through the 2017 season. Id say maybe 10 of those were because of good or great QB play. A majority was because of great defense and special teams. Yet, those wins count all the same for the different QBs that played. The Bills are one of those teams that absolutely need talked about when people say they agree it should be a QB stat. The Bears come to mind as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyPhil1781 Posted July 16, 2021 Author Share Posted July 16, 2021 31 minutes ago, LeotheLion said: The QB has the biggest impact on winning or losing over any other player. I think it matters but it's never the end all be all. There's certainly better stats that would determine did the QB play put the team in a position to win the game. No one is arguing it "doesn't matter" though. Not one person. What impact could the QB have on a defense that gives up 50 points? Notice I said "the defense", not pick 6s, fumbles etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeotheLion Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 6 minutes ago, BobbyPhil1781 said: No one is arguing it "doesn't matter" though. Not one person. What impact could the QB have on a defense that gives up 50 points? Notice I said "the defense", not pick 6s, fumbles etc. This is a really bad way to look at it though. It would be like arguing that interceptions shouldn't be a QB stat because some balls bounce off the WRs hands. Is any other position as important to winning as the QB? No. So like I said, I think it matters because the goal is always to win. The best QBs in the league are usually always on winning teams. It's only when you get to the average ones that there can be big swings. I think everyone like to say QBs wins aren't stats but they still base that into their arguments. If QB wins isn't a stat then do you consider Brady the goat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolmesPriest Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 AGREE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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