NBA Off-Season Thread: Giannis >

[Kirill]

10 hours ago, CWood21 said:

Just stop why you're behind.

I want to believe. The draft can’t be this set in stone. Hearing everyone in the top 4 is committed to the usual suspects Cleveland is the only one we’re not getting that from. Instead we got Evan Mobley saying his favorite team is OKC and Shai talking to Mobley on IG.

 

I think Mobley doesn’t want to go to Cleveland but obviously didn’t go too public with it so they’re trying to max out the value they can move down 3 slots get more picks and maybe dump Loves contract

Edited July 29, 2021 by Kirill

[11sanchez11]

10 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Green/Cade coming into the league reminds me of Edwards/LaMelo last year. Green was playing against pros like LaMelo. Cade was hiding out at a small program getting whooped on like AntMan. 

didn't osu beat the most top 25 teams last year, or were close?

a team that didn't have one player shoot better than 33% from 3 lol (min 1 attempt per gm), well besides cade

Edited July 29, 2021 by 11sanchez11

[NYRaider]

2 hours ago, CWood21 said:

Most largely view Cunningham as the #1 prospect.  Not all, but most.  And he's definitely not a Wigging-level of prospect.  And Wiggins was a good prospect coming out of college.  Green is also significantly lower floor than Cunningham.  He's the right pick for the Rockets, but Cunningham is a superior prospect.

Everyone viewed Anthony Edwards and Andrew Wiggins as the #1 prospect. Not all, but most. Hind-sight is 20-20, when Wiggins was coming out people were comparing him LeBron James and Tracy McGrady.

Edited July 29, 2021 by NYRaider

[Sllim Pickens]

2 hours ago, CWood21 said:

Most largely view Cunningham as the #1 prospect.  Not all, but most.  And he's definitely not a Wigging-level of prospect.  And Wiggins was a good prospect coming out of college.  Green is also significantly lower floor than Cunningham.  He's the right pick for the Rockets, but Cunningham is a superior prospect.

I don't think Green's floor is significantly lower.  The numbers he put up and the way he looked like the best player in the league against fringe and young NBA players raises his floor a lot IMO.  His ability to hit the three at a 36% clip from NBA range raises his floor.  I think Cade has a higher floor, but not by much.  Kuminga is very much the high ceiling/really low floor prospect but Green is not.  

If Green went to college, and showed out on TV against Big12 competition, more people would be talking about him as the #1 prospect. 

[Sllim Pickens]

6 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Everyone viewed Anthony Edwards and Andrew Wiggins as the #1 prospect. Not all, but most. Hind-sight is 20-20, when Wiggins was coming out people were comparing him LeBron James and Tracy McGrady.

Wiggins had crazy hype coming into Kansas.  A lot of that wore off at Kansas but he still had a lot of hype and was the top pick based on potential.  The thing that scares me about guys like him, KAT, Jabari etc is the mindset.  Wiggins still has talent, he just doesn't seem to have that killer instinct and drive to be a gym rat and be better. Cade seems similar in that he has always been the best player wherever he is and he hasn't had to win on his own.  Going to OSU isn't Mamba mentality, its greed mentality.  And it shows a lot about character.  Cade has the talent to be #1, I just don't think he has the intangibles and Green seems to.  

[NYRaider]

2 hours ago, CWood21 said:

It's still an awful comparison.  Cunningham is all the way around better than Edwards.

I'm not comparing their games, they were comparing them in terms of level of prospect.

Quote

Cunningham had a relatively high turnover rate and shot just 46% inside the arc. His stats-only projection is on the low end for recent No. 1 picks along with Edwards and Andrew Wiggins.

Women lie, men lie, numbers don't. When you take a deep dive into the numbers Cade's numbers are more comparable to those of Andrew Wiggins/Anthony Edwards/Markelle Fultz rather than guys like Zion Williams/Derrick Rose/Anthony Davis, etc. 

Obviously Cade was a better shooter than Wiggins but Wiggins had freak athleticism and was legit being touted as the next big thing in basketball when he came out. 

Markelle Fultz situation and numbers are comparable to Cade. He went to a program he knew that had zero chance of winning because a family member was getting funneled money. And across the board in college he was a better scorer, better playmaker, better shooter, and more efficient overall than Cade. 

When you look back at recent draft history there's been 1 player in the last decade that went #1 and has went on to be the best player from his class. And historically the one-n-done players that have gone to smaller programs and then went #1 have pretty much all been busts. 

 

[Mox]

11 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Everyone viewed Anthony Edwards and Andrew Wiggins as the #1 prospect. Not all, but most. Hind-sight is 20-20, when Wiggins was coming out people were comparing him LeBron James and Tracy McGrady.

I didn't have Edwards close to #1 and Wiggins received a lot of hate pre-draft. Before Kansas his hype was insane. That said, with all the defending I've done of Cade I think Mobley is my #1 this year and the top 3 are all in the same tier for me. Then again I went back and relooked at my #1 guys each year and it's a wild list so who cares what I think 🤣

[NYRaider]

3 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Wiggins had crazy hype coming into Kansas.  A lot of that wore off at Kansas but he still had a lot of hype and was the top pick based on potential.  The thing that scares me about guys like him, KAT, Jabari etc is the mindset.  Wiggins still has talent, he just doesn't seem to have that killer instinct and drive to be a gym rat and be better. Cade seems similar in that he has always been the best player wherever he is and he hasn't had to win on his own.  Going to OSU isn't Mamba mentality, its greed mentality.  And it shows a lot about character.  Cade has the talent to be #1, I just don't think he has the intangibles and Green seems to.  

Despite a lot of it wearing off immediately, after the Cavaliers drafted him the local paper published an article comparing him to LeBron James and on draft night he was compared to Tracy McGrady. Other than Zion, in recent draft history I'd say that Wiggins was the most hyped prospect to come out, with Cade now following in that. 

Yes and that article you posted in the draft thread proved as much, pretty much every top prospect that went #1 after playing a year at a smaller program has either been a bust or failed to live up to expectations. They didn't choose those schools because they wanted to win or get better, they chose those schools because they were getting paid. Going to Oklahoma State provided Cade with a chance to have the ball in his hands at all times and a built in excuse for any of his personal struggles because people just say "well his team sucked." No kidding, they just hired a middle school coach as one of their top assistants. 

Markelle Fultz was a similar prospect to Cade Cunningham in terms of situation, production, etc. He could've went to any program in the country but chose Washington because of "family ties" to the program. During his freshman season he averaged 24 ppg, 6 rpg, 6 apg, on 48/41/69 splits. Cade this season averaged 20 ppg, 6 rpg, 3.5 apg on 44/40/84 splits. 

Danny Ainge realized he wasn't as good as advertised, moved down, landed a way better player in Tatum and Fultz has gone on to be a complete bust.

[NYRaider]

7 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

I didn't have Edwards close to #1 and Wiggins received a lot of hate pre-draft. Before Kansas his hype was insane. That said, with all the defending I've done of Cade I think Mobley is my #1 this year and the top 3 are all in the same tier for me. Then again I went back and relooked at my #1 guys each year and it's a wild list so who cares what I think 🤣

The media consensus was that Edwards was the #1 player, LaMelo was better last year. In 2014 the media consensus was that Wiggins was the #1 player, Embiid has been far better. In 2017 the media consensus was that Markelle Fultz was the #1 player, Jayson Tatum has been far better. In 2018 the media consensus was that DeAndre Ayton was the #1 player, Luka Doncic has been far better. Other than 2012 and possibly 2018 (if you think Zion > Ja) there has really been no class in recent memory where the #1 prospect/#1 pick has actually been the best player from his draft class. 

From an analytical stand point Cade's numbers are closest to Wiggins/Edwards when they were coming out in the draft. And as I've said essentially every one-n-done prospect that has went to a smaller school then been selected #1 has either been a complete bust or failed to live up to expectations. 

[Sllim Pickens]

4 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Despite a lot of it wearing off immediately, after the Cavaliers drafted him the local paper published an article comparing him to LeBron James and on draft night he was compared to Tracy McGrady. Other than Zion, in recent draft history I'd say that Wiggins was the most hyped prospect to come out, with Cade now following in that. 

Yes and that article you posted in the draft thread proved as much, pretty much every top prospect that went #1 after playing a year at a smaller program has either been a bust or failed to live up to expectations. They didn't choose those schools because they wanted to win or get better, they chose those schools because they were getting paid. Going to Oklahoma State provided Cade with a chance to have the ball in his hands at all times and a built in excuse for any of his personal struggles because people just say "well his team sucked." No kidding, they just hired a middle school coach as one of their top assistants. 

Markelle Fultz was a similar prospect to Cade Cunningham in terms of situation, production, etc. He could've went to any program in the country but chose Washington because of "family ties" to the program. During his freshman season he averaged 24 ppg, 6 rpg, 6 apg, on 48/41/69 splits. Cade this season averaged 20 ppg, 6 rpg, 3.5 apg on 44/40/84 splits. 

Danny Ainge realized he wasn't as good as advertised, moved down, landed a way better player in Tatum and Fultz has gone on to be a complete bust.

I agree other than comparing him to Fultz's busting.  Fultz has not been healthy at all, which wasn't an issue before that.  When on the court he is definitely not #1 pick value but still a decent player and could be better if he had 4 years of healthy time to improve.  Hopefully that isn't the case with Cade but I definitely see him not living up to the hype. 

[seminoles1]

7 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Danny Ainge realized he wasn't as good as advertised, moved down, landed a way better player in Tatum and Fultz has gone on to be a complete bust.

Ainge had Tatum #1, but no one could have predicted the weirdness that has been Fultz's career so far regarding his shoulder and the yips.

[NYRaider]

1 hour ago, 11sanchez11 said:

didn't osu beat the most top 25 teams last year, or were close?

a team that didn't have one player shoot better than 33% from 3 lol (min 1 attempt per gm), well besides cade

Oklahoma State was 3-6 during Cade's best 9 scoring performances and 18-3 in their other 21 games. Cade chose to go to Oklahoma State, he had offers from every program in the country. Because they paid his brother $400k to be an assistant coach there. It's pretty much the same situation that we saw with Fultz at Washington. 

When Zion played at Duke they were one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the country, of their regular rotation he led the team in 3P FG% at 33%. Ja Morant wasn't surrounded by great shooters or even NBA level players and still balled out. 

[Mox]

2 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

The media consensus was that Edwards was the #1 player, LaMelo was better last year. In 2014 the media consensus was that Wiggins was the #1 player, Embiid has been far better. In 2017 the media consensus was that Markelle Fultz was the #1 player, Jayson Tatum has been far better. In 2018 the media consensus was that DeAndre Ayton was the #1 player, Luka Doncic has been far better. Other than 2012 and possibly 2018 (if you think Zion > Ja) there has really been no class in recent memory where the #1 prospect/#1 pick has actually been the best player from his draft class. 

From an analytical stand point Cade's numbers are closest to Wiggins/Edwards when they were coming out in the draft. And as I've said essentially every one-n-done prospect that has went to a smaller school then been selected #1 has either been a complete bust or failed to live up to expectations. 

The media isn't the end all be all. Edwards was not liked by the hardcore guys, Fultz had a freak incident which derailed his career and everyone I talked to/paid attention to were all over Embiid>Wiggins, and Luka>Ayton. Though I agree with your main point, #1 pick usually doesn't end up the best player.

[NYRaider]

3 minutes ago, seminoles1 said:

Ainge had Tatum #1, but no one could have predicted the weirdness that has been Fultz's career so far regarding his shoulder and the yips.

Yes, Ainge, someone that has hit on a ton of picks had Tatum #1. The media consensus was that Fultz was head and shoulders the best prospect in his draft class. I just think it's telling that pretty much every top prospect that was one-n-done at a small school has failed to live up to expectations after going #1.

[NYRaider]

2 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

The media isn't the end all be all. Edwards was not liked by the hardcore guys, Fultz had a freak incident which derailed his career and everyone I talked to/paid attention to were all over Embiid>Wiggins, and Luka>Ayton. Though I agree with your main point, #1 pick usually doesn't end up the best player.

I agree. The people that actually follow the draft may have had those takes, but the media didn't. Just like this year, the people who actually follow the draft don't have Cade as the #1 prospect by a mile, a lot of people have Green and/or Mobley graded higher.