Training Camp Thread......

[dll2000]

Hoge and Jahns show had an interesting point in latest podcast.

All the angst about Fields not starting now will soon be moot because unless Bears start hot he likely will be soon.

My anger isn’t about when will Fields start.  I know he will start in first 1/3 of season.   I have always known it.   I would be absolutely shocked if Dalton held the job past first 4 games.

My anger is Fields has a literal, a literal, handful of reps with just some of 1s.  

The entire offseason has been geared toward getting Dalton - Dalton - ready to start.  

Getting Dalton’s timing with Mooney and Robinson and Kmet down.   

Getting Dalton comfortable with the ones.

Getting Dalton the most and quality practice reps.

Now Dalton, with 12 years of NFL experience, is going to get inevitably pulled for a rookie with 0 years experience and he has had least amount of quality practice.

He has virtually no reps with first team O.    He has no timing with Robinson or Mooney.

This is my anger.  You are going to throw the franchise QB (which is Fields) to the wolves and preparing him in crappiest way possible on the stupid notion that you were going to sit him for the year so it didn’t matter.

 

[abstract_thought]

The problem isn't drafting Jenkins. GMs take injury fliers all the time. But cutting your best fail-safe option knowing Jenkins had a potentially serious back injury? If you thought Leno was bad, wait until you see Jason Peters.

[soulman]

3 hours ago, Madmike90 said:

I get Dan is seen as a great source (I never have but none the less) and I like Biggs alot...but I just can't trust hindsight reporting...had it been the issues with his back stopped him practicing and then they came out and said there was a know issue then cool...but why wait 3 weeks of listening to the Bears saying it's only tightness to speak up? Nothing was even hinted at by these guys until it was announced that he had to have surgery...does that really sit well with you? Guys who are usually breaking news wait 3 weeks to say anything about a potential issue? Doesn't sound like any reporter I have ever heard...Greg Gabriel is the most reliable source who stated that there was no back issues or any medical red flags at all with Jenkins...I trust that he is more connected than the beat writers and again he doesn't have a dog in the fighter either...

Either way it doesn't really matter if he did or he didn't at this point...we will never truly know...what we can agree on is it sucks when any player gets hurt and the quicker we can get him back to 100% the better...just don't rush it...

Nagy/Daboll/Fields is going to need that big guy up front for years to come.

Well Gabriel was once a Bears personnel guy so in his case there's still a personal connection with the McCaskey Family and Teddy Bears if nothing else.  And again, I'm not saying 31 other teams necessarily took Jenkins off their draft board but am I am saying some may have and others may have lowered his draft grade pushing even farther down their draft boards.

Other than to speculate I can't say why the Bears waited 3 weeks to announce Jenkins back surgery. What I can say is the Bears reported it as back sprain.  A severe stretching or a full detachment of muscles or ligaments in his back.  According to the Mayo Clinic no less the prescribed treatment is rest and rehab for 2-4 weeks.  Apparently that wasn't working.

Now, whether it was far worse than initially thought or it was something else entirely we don't know right now but I suspect eventually we will.  So either the Bears believed he would get better or they knew much earlier that surgery might be needed and simply sat on it for a bit thinking about how best to handle it from a PR perspective.  Admit it, it  makes Pace look bad.

So my point in all of this is that we knew he had multiple issues with his back in the past that had even caused him to miss the very last games of his college career.  So it wasn't an old injury that caused that.  If we knew it 31 other teams knew it as well.  How all of them chose to deal with it won't be fully disclosed if only because teams are far too secretive about drafting.

But the fact is a draftee ranked 3rd or 4th at his position and also ranked to go between picks 10-20 fell completely out of round 1 and all the way to the 7th pick in round 2.  As badly as every NFL team needs talented OTs to me that's a solid indication other teams were concerned about his back issues as well.  Or more to the point, we knew and they knew about it too.

I'm not claiming to be right Mike.  I'm simply putting forth the way I see it based on fact and logic.  It's nice to quote the media as way to creating a thread to stir discussion but I tend to ignore certain things that are said and take the facts where they lead me which is usually away from the team PR or propaganda produced for the media and then reported on by a Biggsy.

 

[dll2000]

My thoughts continued from above post.

Well Shanahan and Belichick are doing same thing and they are great coaches.

The situation is different because they have returning starter QBs - and Mac has gotten quality reps with 1s.

Dalton was not the Bears starter in 2020.   He is new to team. 

With Trey Lance - he is like MT.   He has no college experience and he just isn’t ready to play yet.

You can’t say that about Fields - yes he is a rookie and will play like a rookie   But amongst rookie QBs he is ready to go and start gaining experience.

He would be exponentially better off had you prepared him as starter from day 1.   From draft day.

To treat him as a back up is and was asinine.   It is not same situation as Mahomes.

And Mahomes should have been starter from day 1!   They may have 1 or 2 more SBs had that been case.  

 

[soulman]

BEARS
O-line clock is ticking

5 questions facing the Bears offensive line, including how much does Peters has left
Bears offensive tackle Jason Peters walks on the field Saturday before the preseason game against the Buffalo Bills. Kamil Krzaczynski/AP

By Colleen Kane and Dan Wiederer Chicago Tribune

With less than three weeks left until their season opener against the Los Angeles Rams, the Bears still have a lot of unknowns regarding their offensive line.

Rookie tackle Teven Jenkins underwent back surgery last week and could be lost for the season. Right tackle Germain Ifedi and right guard James Daniels didn’t play in the first two preseason games because of injuries. And new left tackle Jason Peters is still getting up to speed after joining the team last week.

As the Bears try to sort out that group before Sept. 12, here are five significant questions to consider.

How much does Peters have left?: When the Bears were trying to figure out their options at left tackle due to Jenkins’ back injury, general manager Ryan Pace asked offensive line coach Juan Castillo to take a look at recent tape of Peters.

Castillo was Peters’ offensive line coach when the left tackle joined the Philadelphia Eagles in 2009, and they remained close even after Castillo left the Eagles after the 2012 season.

Castillo found himself trying to help Bears decision-makers determine whether the 39-year-old Peters — an “elite athlete” when Castillo coached him — still could play at a high level entering his 18th season.

“When I looked at the tape, I thought he was a good athlete, and to me there are not very many offensive linemen who are good athletes,” Castillo said. “Now he’s in that territory. He’s not an elite athlete. He’s a good athlete, which is still pretty good. We’ll bring back some of the technique stuff we did when we were together. I just showed him all of his cut-ups when we were together. He was playing pretty well, playing square, and if we do that, he’s going to be pretty successful.”

Peters is a nine-time Pro Bowl selection and six-time All-Pro (two first-team selections, four second-team), and Castillo admitted he thought about Peters’ Hall of Fame-caliber resume as the Bears signed him to a one-year contract worth up to $1.75 million. Peters missed eight games last season with the Eagles and ended the year on injured reserve with a toe injury.

“I would hate to bring him here if he didn’t have the ability to play,” Castillo said. “Jason and I know each other, and we talked about goals. First thing he’s got to do is he has to compete and beat out a couple of young guys who are pretty close to good athletes, too, so I think he’s up for the challenge.”

Can Daniels pick up where he left off last October?: Daniels hasn’t played in a game since Oct. 8, 2020, when he tore his pectoral muscle and went on injured reserve. He returned to work for the Bears in OTAs but injured his quad early in training camp and has missed the first two preseason games.

But Daniels, a 2018 second-round pick, returned to practice last week and is optimistic about where he is, saying he’s stronger and has better technique than last year.

“I feel like right now I’m a way better player than I am when I got hurt last year,” Daniels, 23, said.

Daniels thought he and the Bears offensive line were in a pretty good place early last season before he was injured, cutting short his third NFL season after just five games. He said being out was difficult, but he appreciated the time he got to spend with his mom — who moved in with him to help — his girlfriend and his cat.

“I was sad for probably like a week,” Daniels said. “I had my surgery. I was in pain the entire time I was in my sling. That was awful. But when I was hurt, I started realizing and appreciating the situation I had.”

Daniels has bounced from left guard to center and now to right guard with the Bears settling on Sam Mustipher at center and Cody Whitehair at left guard. Daniels said he is fine with playing anywhere. He’s just eager to play again.

Castillo, who encouraged Daniels to gain weight before last season, said he’s putting in the work to continue to ascend.

“That (weight) makes him stouter at the point of attack, and he’s very athletic, so he’s moving just as good as he was before,” Castillo said. “James has the ability to be a Pro Bowl-type player. You go back to the work ethic, the sacrifice, he has those things.”

What can the Bears squeeze out of veteran Elijah Wilkinson?: Jenkins’ injury opened a door for Wilkinson to test himself at left tackle with the first-team offense early in camp. He was handling himself fairly well, too, before winding up on the reserve/COVID-19 list for five days after he was identified as an unvaccinated high-risk close contact of nose tackle Eddie Goldman.

But Wilkinson has acknowledged openly that the challenge of moving from right tackle, where he has played most of his career, has been significant, almost like trying to learn how to drive on the left side of the road.

“It’s a difficult thing to do,” he said. “(People say), ‘Oh, it’s just flipping to the other side.’ But if you think about it, it’s all flipped around. The plays are backward. The call’s on the other side. You’re talking to somebody else on your other side. It’s very different. It’s challenging.”

Heading into the first preseason game, Matt Nagy expressed curiosity to see how Wilkinson would hold up in live action and stressed the need to “eliminate the big misses.”

“He’s a good football player,” Nagy said. “Then every now and then there will be one (miss) that just might get him. He’s learning from that. ... The greatest tackles in the world have those. It’s just trying to reduce those and minimize them.”

Wilkinson played 40 and 26 snaps against the Dolphins and Bills, respectively. He wasn’t penalized Saturday and was not responsible for either of the two sacks of Andy Dalton in the first half. But he was pushed back or beaten around the edge on a couple of occasions and will need to continue to clean up his mistakes.

The Bears have appreciated Wilkinson’s effort but have yet to be convinced he can be a sturdy 17-game answer as a starter at the most important position up front. Thus, the Peters signing.
Wilkinson will have an additional opportunity to show his progress against the Tennessee Titans in the preseason finale Saturday. But he might have to be readying himself to become a reserve swing-tackle option once the season begins.

What’s next for fifth-round pick Larry Borom?: Bears coaches say they had second- and third-round grades on Borom heading into the draft and felt incredibly fortunate to land him in Round 5. Borom’s athleticism and agility are impressive for his 6-foot-5, 332-pound frame. And when he has taken turns at left tackle over the last month, his potential has been apparent, enough so that the coaching staff believes he eventually can develop into a possible long-term answer there.

But Borom suffered a concussion early this month and missed 10 practices during a critical stage of training camp. He returned to the field last week and saw his first preseason game action Saturday, playing 38 snaps against the Bills.

“That was fun,” he said.

Like Wilkinson, Borom has spent most of his football life playing right tackle. (He said he played one game at left tackle in 2019 at Missouri.) And he stressed the difficulties of flipping sides.
“It’s just footwork,” Borom said. “It’s all muscle memory, doing it over and over again. I’ve been on the right (side) so long, to go and flip to the left is just difficult. ... It is a challenge. But at the end of the day, everyone loves a good challenge.”

Castillo has praised Borom as being athletic, smart and tough with a promising ability to bend. “It’s about what kind of God-given ability do you have and then what kind of work ethic are you willing to sacrifice,” Castillo said. “Larry is like that. ... He has the skills and mindset to sacrifice and do the little extra work.”

What is the timeline for Jenkins’ return?: It’s hard to say. Nagy last week declined to offer specifics regarding what Jenkins’ back surgery was attempting to address. And while the Bears said the procedure went off without a hitch, it’s difficult to know what the recovery timeline might be.

The Bears remain hopeful that Jenkins can return at some point this season. But the idea of him becoming a starter in 2021 seems far-fetched. Jenkins didn’t even begin practicing at training camp and also faces the challenge of settling in at left tackle after spending much of his college career on the right side.

The practical plan for the Bears might revolve around working Jenkins back for a fully healthy start to the 2022 offseason program. That would seem to be a wiser approach to his long-term development than trying to rush him back as a rookie to take over a position where he still isn’t comfortable.

[soulman]

12 minutes ago, soulman said:

Heading into the first preseason game, Matt Nagy expressed curiosity to see how Wilkinson would hold up in live action and stressed the need to “eliminate the big misses.”

“He’s a good football player,” Nagy said. “Then every now and then there will be one (miss) that just might get him. He’s learning from that. ... The greatest tackles in the world have those. It’s just trying to reduce those and minimize them.”

Damn, why does Nagy insist on spending time and compliments on a guy like Wilkinson instead of his younger players who still may have tons of upside.  It's those guys he needs to focus on.

Wilkinson is in his 5th year in the NFL.  IMHO if the NFL wasn't so hard up for big OTs like him he would never have lasted this long.  He spent four seasons in Denver.  By last season they knew he had peaked and that his peak was not very high even as a RT.  So they released him.

What is there about a guy who is complaining about how difficult it is for him to swap from RT to LT who got completely pancaked by a 260lb DE his last game that has earned compliments from Nagy.  Here's Nagy excusing that play instead of either ignoring it or singling it out as bad.

This is what I keep saying about Matt Nagy.  He wants to be liked.  It seems he'd rather be the most likeable HC the Bears have ever had instead of the winningest.  Toughen up Matt!  The guy is a 26 year old 4 time failed NFL OT.  He shouldn't even make the final 53 man roster.

Edited August 26, 2021 by soulman

[dll2000]

30 minutes ago, soulman said:

BEARS
O-line clock is ticking

“When I looked at the tape, I thought he was a good athlete, and to me there are not very many offensive linemen who are good athletes,” Castillo said.

This is problem with O line play in all of football and it comes to a head at NFL level.  College coaches really have to start moving high school DL and TEs to OL and redshirting them.   That would go a long way to solving the problem.   I can't believe they haven't all caught onto that trick yet.   Instead they all compete for the handful of really good high school OL instead of making their own out of better material.

NFL simply doesn't have time or inclination to make new OL out of other positions.  Yes it happens on occasion, but it is hard given practice limitations.

 

 

“I would hate to bring him here if he didn’t have the ability to play,” Castillo said. “Jason and I know each other, and we talked about goals. First thing he’s got to do is he has to compete and beat out a couple of young guys who are pretty close to good athletes, too, so I think he’s up for the challenge.”

Sounds like Castillo knows there is some uncertainty and Bears are going in with eyes wide open.  How can you not?  I mean he is one of oldest players in league.   I think counting on Jason for any length of time is kind of a foolish plan.   

Can Daniels pick up where he left off last October?: Daniels hasn’t played in a game since Oct. 8, 2020, when he tore his pectoral muscle and went on injured reserve. He returned to work for the Bears in OTAs but injured his quad early in training camp and has missed the first two preseason games.

But Daniels, a 2018 second-round pick, returned to practice last week and is optimistic about where he is, saying he’s stronger and has better technique than last year.

“I feel like right now I’m a way better player than I am when I got hurt last year,” Daniels, 23, said.

That is good news. I thought Daniels regressed a lot under Harry since Iowa.  Honestly, Daniels had best fundamentals on team his rookie year in a lot of reps I broke down on Gamepass.  Why I thought he was going to be a perennial pro bowler after his rookie year. Then next season he was amongst worst.  Really going to help him to have Juan I think.  

Heading into the first preseason game, Matt Nagy expressed curiosity to see how Wilkinson would hold up in live action and stressed the need to “eliminate the big misses.”

“He’s a good football player,” Nagy said. “Then every now and then there will be one (miss) that just might get him. He’s learning from that. ... The greatest tackles in the world have those. It’s just trying to reduce those and minimize them.”

Wilkinson is not a good football player.  

What’s next for fifth-round pick Larry Borom?: Bears coaches say they had second- and third-round grades on Borom heading into the draft and felt incredibly fortunate to land him in Round 5. Borom’s athleticism and agility are impressive for his 6-foot-5, 332-pound frame. And when he has taken turns at left tackle over the last month, his potential has been apparent, enough so that the coaching staff believes he eventually can develop into a possible long-term answer there.

Castillo has praised Borom as being athletic, smart and tough with a promising ability to bend. “It’s about what kind of God-given ability do you have and then what kind of work ethic are you willing to sacrifice,” Castillo said. “Larry is like that. ... He has the skills and mindset to sacrifice and do the little extra work.”

Borom has starting caliber ability in NFL.  Bears need to find a spot for him and leave him there.   I think he is best suited for G.    

What is the timeline for Jenkins’ return?: It’s hard to say. Nagy last week declined to offer specifics regarding what Jenkins’ back surgery was attempting to address. And while the Bears said the procedure went off without a hitch, it’s difficult to know what the recovery timeline might be.

The Bears remain hopeful that Jenkins can return at some point this season. But the idea of him becoming a starter in 2021 seems far-fetched. Jenkins didn’t even begin practicing at training camp and also faces the challenge of settling in at left tackle after spending much of his college career on the right side.

I think you just medical redshirt Jenkins and not play around with his back.  Its a bummer, but it is what it is now.

 

 

[Heinz D.]

On 8/26/2021 at 9:33 AM, dll2000 said:

And Mahomes should have been starter from day 1!   They may have 1 or 2 more SBs had that been case.  

Probably not, actually. But...he should have been in there before week 17...

On 8/26/2021 at 8:37 AM, soulman said:

Other than to speculate I can't say why the Bears waited 3 weeks to announce Jenkins back surgery. What I can say is the Bears reported it as back sprain.  A severe stretching or a full detachment of muscles or ligaments in his back.  According to the Mayo Clinic no less the prescribed treatment is rest and rehab for 2-4 weeks.  Apparently that wasn't working.

Well, Pace and Nagy love to lie. I actually detest that more about them than their lapses into incompetence, or shameful "blame gaming". 

But...everybody had Jenkins as a second round guy pretty much all along...and if he can recover, he could turn out to be a guy worthy of a first round pick. 

So, I wouldn't be clutching those pearls just yet...

[soulman]

5 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

So, I wouldn't be clutching those pearls just yet...

I don't own any pearls but I do own a lifelong accumulation of back injuries dating back to my HS days.  Those cause my back muscles to clutch and spasm and have weakened my back over time.

IHMO IF Jenkins can return he will never be 100% and his career will be shorter than average.  I'll just leave that prediction here for future review.

[Epyon]

On 8/26/2021 at 8:27 AM, abstract_thought said:

If you thought Leno was bad, wait until you see Jason Peters.

I'm incredibly skeptical Peters lasts even half a season at his age, too.

I'd wager that's also why Borom isn't our starting RT right now over Ifedi, who has also been pretty bad...  They started giving him LT reps, and want him to stay focused on that spot, because I don't think they expect Peters to be able to run the gauntlet (and/or maybe even need to alternate series on account of Peters' conditioning).... Borom is our LT by week 8, imo.... Jenkins, if he comes back at all this year (which I'm skeptical on), is gonna be the RT

[soulman]

I won't judge Ifedi on the basis of one preseason game following an injury vs his entire 2020 season.  I think we'll be OK with Ifedi once he gets back in game shape and working again.

Peters on the other hand scares me because he looks 30lbs overweight and at his age shedding pounds and rounding back into football shape isn't gonna be easy.  All the experience and technique in the world won't help if your feet just won't move fast enough any longer.

I'd keep Borom working at LT assuming that we'll need him sooner than later.

 

[Bfan]

2 hours ago, soulman said:

I won't judge Ifedi on the basis of one preseason game following an injury vs his entire 2020 season.  I think we'll be OK with Ifedi once he gets back in game shape and working again.

Peters on the other hand scares me because he looks 30lbs overweight and at his age shedding pounds and rounding back into football shape isn't gonna be easy.  All the experience and technique in the world won't help if your feet just won't move fast enough any longer.

I'd keep Borom working at LT assuming that we'll need him sooner than later.

 

Other things I have read seem to be saying that Peters has always looked like that.  It seems to be kind of his super power.  He fools people that don't know him into believing he is fat and sloppy then he surprises them.

[Sugashane]

2 hours ago, soulman said:

I'd keep Borom working at LT assuming that we'll need him sooner than later.

 

To add to that, imo Borom needs to work on both sides regardless. Peters likely is out before week 8 and Ifedi is coming off an injury. Hopefully he really is 100% come week one, but if he aggravates it then we need Borom to step up there too. 

If he does well there then Jenkins can just stick to RT. Longshot but let's hope it works out. Lol

[soulman]

6 hours ago, Bfan said:

Other things I have read seem to be saying that Peters has always looked like that.  It seems to be kind of his super power.  He fools people that don't know him into believing he is fat and sloppy then he surprises them.

You could be right.  He still looked fairly nimble on a couple of plays last Saturday but on others not so much.  Our problem is in two weeks we have two OTs who've missed almost all of camp and preseason and they're tabbed to start against a very good DL.

If I'm Andy Dalton I'd be out shopping some disability insurance about now.

It's always gonna be tough to judge this offense until we finally show some stability in the OL or where to pin the blame when it doesn't happen.  It seems to me that we aren't that lacking in talent and Castillo is said to be an excellent OL coach so what's the real issue here?

Edited August 31, 2021 by soulman

[soulman]

6 hours ago, Sugashane said:

To add to that, imo Borom needs to work on both sides regardless. Peters likely is out before week 8 and Ifedi is coming off an injury. Hopefully he really is 100% come week one, but if he aggravates it then we need Borom to step up there too. 

If he does well there then Jenkins can just stick to RT. Longshot but let's hope it works out. Lol

While it's tough to get too upset about RT with Ifedi having improved as much as he did over last season expecting Jenkins to step in at LT was a bold move that now looks downright stupid if they knew about his previous back issues.

Lets hope Peters can pass protect at least as well as Leno and maybe run block a little better since that part shouldn't be all that hard to do.  Leno was never a very good run blocker.  At the very least we need Ifedi to play at the level he was at late last year.

If we can get that much out of those two I might just work Bars at backup RT and keep Borom playing behind Peters learning all he can from him because I still believe it's 50/50 whether or not Jenkins will ever become what was expected of him when drafted.