Training Camp Thread......

[abstract_thought]

5 hours ago, soulman said:

Lets hope Peters can pass protect at least as well as Leno and maybe run block a little better since that part shouldn't be all that hard to do.  Leno was never a very good run blocker.  At the very least we need Ifedi to play at the level he was at late last year.

There is no way Peters is better than Leno at this point. He was one of the worst starting OT in the NFL last season. Then he got hurt.

Bears' best hope is Borom. Peters is a waste of reps at this point in his career.

[soulman]

1 hour ago, abstract_thought said:

There is no way Peters is better than Leno at this point. He was one of the worst starting OT in the NFL last season. Then he got hurt.

Bears' best hope is Borom. Peters is a waste of reps at this point in his career.

Well, Peters is gonna have to do his best imitation of a starting NFL LT because at the moment he's as good as we've got.  It's hard to swallow just how badly Pace has messed up with his OL.

[JAF-N72EX]

On 8/26/2021 at 10:33 AM, dll2000 said:

And Mahomes should have been starter from day 1!   They may have 1 or 2 more SBs had that been case.  

Oh I know. For sure gtd. Same with the Packers Favre/Rodgers. That's why Nagy is stupid for not rushing Fields development. If he did then we have a SB this year or the next........

 

 

[The_Romen]

59 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Oh I know. For sure gtd. Same with the Packers Favre/Rodgers. That's why Nagy is stupid for not rushing Fields development. If he did then we have a SB this year or the next........

 

 

I wouldn't go that far, but I feel he'd earn a lot of goodwill and perhaps some leeway from the fans... It just makes sense.

[JAF-N72EX]

37 minutes ago, The_Romen said:

I wouldn't go that far, but I feel he'd earn a lot of goodwill and perhaps some leeway from the fans... It just makes sense.

Proper development and patience that leads to 10+ of years good QB>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>goodwill from fans. All day long.

We've been looking for a good QB for 100 years and 3 large reason for this has been lack of scouting, patience, and proper development. We finally got the scouting part right, for once. But now fans want the staff to continue making the same mistakes with patience and proper development.  It makes no sense.

The staff knows better than we do as far as where he's at in terms of the development. We don't know what part of offense he does or doesn't understand yet. We're not in those meetings, and I'm tired of people acting as if they are. If he's not ready then he's not ready, it's as simple as that.

What I DO know is that this fan base is NOTORIOUSLY brutal towards QB--sometimes a little too harsh. What do you think happens if they rush his development in May and decide to throw him out there in week one with an OL who has only practiced together for one week prior to going against the most dominant defensive lineman in the league and Fields plays bad --at best-- or worse gets taken out for the season like Burrows did last year? The media and fans will rip him apart and start making Rexman/Trubisky/Cutler comps and kill any confidence this kid had going into the season making any effort towards his proper development moot at that point.

 

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by JAF-N72EX

[The_Romen]

26 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Proper development and patience that leads to 10+ of years good QB>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>goodwill from fans. All day long.

We've been looking for a good QB for 100 years and 3 large reason for this has been lack of scouting, patience, and proper development. We finally got the scouting part right, for once. But now fans want the staff to continue making the same mistakes with patience and proper development.  It makes no sense.

We don't know this because he's not playing. He's (as well as Dalton) being put in a show for us instead of giving us actual substance that shows change. They did literally the same thing they did with Glennon/Trubisky, just half the price now with an excess of draft capital being sunk. The line still stinks, the offense stinks and now it's old and expensive at the cost of the defense. 

Not to even mention that Allen Robinson hasn't been extended... It's just really confusing.

The staff knows better than we do as far as where he's at in terms of the development. We don't know what part of offense he does or doesn't understand yet. We're not in those meetings, and I'm tired of people acting as if they are. If he's not ready then he's not ready, it's as simple as that.

I mean... Does this staff know better?

What I DO know is that this fan base is NOTORIOUSLY brutal towards QB--sometimes a little too harsh.

They make millions and millions of dollars. They're fine. But if Pace wants aggressive trade ups, he's going to get aggressive fans. We spend big money on jerseys, I'd like to see some ROI.

Hell, if they could just give some straight forward answers from reporters, they'd get out of their own way sometimes.

 

[JAF-N72EX]

3 minutes ago, The_Romen said:

50 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Proper development and patience that leads to 10+ of years good QB>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>goodwill from fans. All day long.

We've been looking for a good QB for 100 years and 3 large reason for this has been lack of scouting, patience, and proper development. We finally got the scouting part right, for once. But now fans want the staff to continue making the same mistakes with patience and proper development.  It makes no sense.

We don't know this because he's not playing.

But yet the same exact conclusion is being drawn from the other side of the spectrum too.

Right now, none of us really know.  What I do know is that I would finally take developing a good QB over getting some high fives and butt slaps from our overreacting armchair fan base.

18 minutes ago, The_Romen said:

The staff knows better than we do as far as where he's at in terms of the development. We don't know what part of offense he does or doesn't understand yet. We're not in those meetings, and I'm tired of people acting as if they are. If he's not ready then he's not ready, it's as simple as that.

I mean... Does this staff know better?

Are you in those meetings?

19 minutes ago, The_Romen said:

What I DO know is that this fan base is NOTORIOUSLY brutal towards QB--sometimes a little too harsh.

They make millions and millions of dollars

Money has nothing to do with Fields development.

[The_Romen]

16 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Money has nothing to do with Fields development.

Is the DB room better with Fuller or not? Is Quinn being bad worth losing AR next year?

Using the cap wisely during Fields rookie contract is exactly a money thing, that's why the 2011 CBA was signed. Now Mahomes makes 500 million and Fields makes scratch.

There's a 4-5 year window right now, no? That's why losing draft picks to get Fields was so important, he needs the pieces around him (so does Rodgers, Brady, etc...) and we supposedly HAVE the pieces... Until they just don't extend them and don't explain why.

I'm sure you can understand why them using money on old, declining talent while being prioritized over young, rising, fan favorite players is annoying and frustrating, right?

[JAF-N72EX]

12 minutes ago, The_Romen said:

35 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Money has nothing to do with Fields development.

Is the DB room better with Fuller or not? Is Quinn being bad worth losing AR next year?

None of this has anything to do with my point that you quoted. We're talking about the development of Fields here. Your getting off track again.

I'll post it again.

1 hour ago, JAF-N72EX said:

What I DO know is that this fan base is NOTORIOUSLY brutal towards QB--sometimes a little too harsh. What do you think happens if they rush his development in May and decide to throw him out there in week one with an OL who has only practiced together for one week prior to going against the most dominant defensive lineman in the league and Fields plays bad --at best-- or worse gets taken out for the season like Burrows did last year? The media and fans will rip him apart and start making Rexman/Trubisky/Cutler comps and kill any confidence this kid had going into the season making any effort towards his proper development moot at that point.

 

24 minutes ago, The_Romen said:

There's a 4-5 year window right now, no? That's why losing draft picks to get Fields was so important, he needs the pieces around him (so does Rodgers, Brady, etc...) and we supposedly HAVE the pieces... Until they just don't extend them and don't explain why.

I'm sure you can understand why them using money on old, declining talent while being prioritized over young, rising, fan favorite players is annoying and frustrating, right?

Again, lets stay on track.  We're talking about development of Fields, not his contract and what it means to the rest of team or visa versa. All of this is irrelevant to the main point.

And for the record, I get your point here.....your intertwining all aspects of the team and how it pertains to Fields in general. And,yes, I agree, they should've extended Arob a longtime ago and should'nt have let Fuller go outright without atleast getting something in return. I've beating that drum since day 1 when others were saying Arob and Fuller wasn't worth it. I've always been saying the defense will need to be revamped (not rebuilt) after this year and a good QB doesn't fix that either. This year is the last chance that I think our defense is going to be anything close to the top-11 before it needs to be reb.

However, this is for a different and deeper topic man.

[The_Romen]

4 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

What I DO know is that this fan base is NOTORIOUSLY brutal towards QB--sometimes a little too harsh. What do you think happens if they rush his development in May and decide to throw him out there in week one with an OL who has only practiced together for one week prior to going against the most dominant defensive lineman in the league and Fields plays bad --at best-- or worse gets taken out for the season like Burrows did last year? The media and fans will rip him apart and start making Rexman/Trubisky/Cutler comps and kill any confidence this kid had going into the season making any effort towards his proper development moot at that point.

What should make you mad is the guy you want to develop was out there last week getting his helmet blasted off and losing starting reps in practice to a stopgap.

What development did that get him? The same might happen to him in week one, but it's better for it to happen and you know whether he can play instead of delaying it when a new set of contracts is up.

Play him with the established talent, not the what-ifs.

 

[abstract_thought]

It seems odd that so many critics of Matt Nagy now preach trust in his approach to developing Fields because that’s what Mahomes did.

It’s an entirely different situation. Mahomes was sitting behind an established veteran on a playoff team. And for every Mahomes, there’s a Watson or Prescott or Murray or Herbert that played early and turned out fine. There is nothing beyond anecdotal evidence on both sides of this argument.

As for Bears fans being notoriously tough on QBs - this is the same fan base that spun itself in circles to believe in Mitch Trubisky, even 1-2 years after he proved he wasn’t a great QB.

[dll2000]

11 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Oh I know. For sure gtd. Same with the Packers Favre/Rodgers. That's why Nagy is stupid for not rushing Fields development. If he did then we have a SB this year or the next........

 

 

I notice you didn’t mention Love.  Shouldn’t he be ready to take the reigns this season and run with it? 

He did best possible method of teaching.  Sitting and watching for a season.  

 

[dll2000]

10 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Proper development and patience that leads to 10+ of years good QB>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>goodwill from fans. All day long.

We've been looking for a good QB for 100 years and 3 large reason for this has been lack of scouting, patience, and proper development. We finally got the scouting part right, for once. But now fans want the staff to continue making the same mistakes with patience and proper development.  It makes no sense.

The staff knows better than we do as far as where he's at in terms of the development. We don't know what part of offense he does or doesn't understand yet. We're not in those meetings, and I'm tired of people acting as if they are. If he's not ready then he's not ready, it's as simple as that.

What I DO know is that this fan base is NOTORIOUSLY brutal towards QB--sometimes a little too harsh. What do you think happens if they rush his development in May and decide to throw him out there in week one with an OL who has only practiced together for one week prior to going against the most dominant defensive lineman in the league and Fields plays bad --at best-- or worse gets taken out for the season like Burrows did last year? The media and fans will rip him apart and start making Rexman/Trubisky/Cutler comps and kill any confidence this kid had going into the season making any effort towards his proper development moot at that point.

 

 

The question is what is best possible method of teaching and development; sitting and watching or getting quality and volume reps?

I go with quality reps all day every day.  

Watching is not without value and scout team reps are not without value.  Meetings are not without value.   But best value is quality reps and game experience.  

I will grant that disastrous play and fan pressure can ruin a QB while young and develop bad habits or a loss of confidence that never goes away.  It is a legit concern.   I just think that fast development of a rookie QB is route to take rather than waiting and taking a slower approach.      

As far as Bears fans.  They are brutal because they lack patience in a bad product and products take time to develop - so it isn’t fair.  I would note they did not do that with Trubisky.  They were patient and defended him and waited. 

And why have other Bears products been bad in past?  Maybe they just weren’t good - likely for most but not all.  But some replaced an injured starter or a bad starter without getting quality practice reps  and then were expected to perform at a high level on little notice and without an offseason.  That isn’t fair. 

What Bears fans should do or should have done and are doing now, is be patient while a young and talented QB plays bad like a Peyton Manning or the like in his rookie year.

 

 

 

[soulman]

15 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

But now fans want the staff to continue making the same mistakes with patience and proper development.  It makes no sense.

The staff knows better than we do as far as where he's at in terms of the development.

I believe what it comes down to is a lack of trust in this teams ability to properly identify a players development and therefore make certain that he is developed properly.  So are you saying that after all you've seen from Nagy's inability to develop Mitch that you completely trust him with the development of Fields, no questions asked?

Nagy is selling an approach saying that once Dalton is out there with the starters playing for real that he will be the better choice of the two QBs right now.  OK.  I'm not buying that 100% but if that's his pitch and he can't be moved from it were sure as hell gonna know soon enough just how right....or wrong he is.  Then we can review that question again.

[soulman]

5 hours ago, dll2000 said:

I will grant that disastrous play and fan pressure can ruin a QB while young and develop bad habits or a loss of confidence that never goes away.  It is a legit concern.   I just think that fast development of a rookie QB is route to take rather than waiting and taking a slower approach.    

I'd like to tackle just this one paragraph.

While it's possible that Mitch Trubisky career was derailed by putting him under too much pressure too soon I don't believe that's what happened in my own mind.  I believe Mitch was poorly prepared to become an NFL starter because he spent far too little time as a starter in college.  Maybe another year or two at that as Fields has had would have made a difference.

What's most noticeable in the difference between the two surfaces almost immediately during their respective pressers.  Mitch was always more unsure of himself and more of an I gotta get better kind of guy simply parroting what most failing to win often enough guys do.  Fields is far more confident and more of an "I got this" kind of guy because he's been there before.

Fields has gone up against some of the toughest college defenses in the nation and beaten them.  Mitch Trubisky never did.  Fields may get injured due to a poor OL or some other factor but he's not gonna be impacted as much by a bad series or a bad game because he's had those as well and came back from them to win.  Bad habits can also be corrected on the fly.

So while I began this summer buying into Matt Nagy's approach of starting Dalton and bringing Fields along slowly all I've had to do is watch both in preseason to know whose the better QB now and despite all of his experience it isn't Andy Dalton.  If the objective is to both protect and perfect Fields well then I guess Matt Nagy's approach is the way to go about it.....maybe.

But if your objective is to win as often as you can as soon as you can then you really need to be playing your top talent at every position and not dawdle or be indecisive about it.  Fields may or may not make a few more mistakes than Andy Dalton will but he's also better equipped to recover from them and has many times over at OSU.  IMHO he'll do the exact same here.