Training Camp Thread......

[JAF-N72EX]

On 9/1/2021 at 3:09 PM, soulman said:

So are you saying that after all you've seen from Nagy's inability to develop Mitch that you completely trust him with the development of Fields, no questions asked?

Mitch had bust written all over him from jump and I'm not about to blame Nagy for Mitch's own inevitable failures. Nagy has his own faults, but this isn't one of them. That seems very foolish and unreasonable to me. 

I put more blame on Pace/Fox for throwing a raw rookie QB like Mitch to the wolves in 2017 with a terrible OC in Logains, a banged up OL, and red-shirt talent at skill positions. I didnt like Mitch coming out of college and absolutely hated the trade, but even I empathize for Mitch in how he was treated in 2017. This hindered Mitch's development far more than anything Nagy ever did.

I only blame Nagy for 3 things he did wrong in terms of developing Mitch. Well, only two things, really.

1) Picking Mitch in the 1st place as someone capable of running his offense. In hindsight, going to the Bears was a poor choice for him. But I guess rookies will rookie --and yes, that includes coaches too.

2) When Nagy came here, he thought he could "fix" Mitch by hiding his weaknesses through innovated play-calling and surrounding him with talent, which sounds good on paper. Where Nagy went wrong were the constant changes in play-calling instead of sticking with a plan. 

In 2018, Nagy trusted Mitch to run his "advanced offense" and when he realized that Mitch wasn't able to, he shortened his playbook mid-season (which I had no real problem with that. When things aren't working, you change it up). He stuck with this until the end of the season. In 2019, he changed his offense again. He expected Mitch to run his offense and Mitch still didn't get it, so Nagy dumbed it down for him mid-season while relying on the run. When that work, Nagy got fed up and changed it again toward the end of 2019 by opening up his entire playbook and basically told Mitch "either run this offense like it was meant to run or I'll find someone else who can". Then in 2020, same thing. Truth be told, I think Nagy was finished with Mitch at this point, and Pace's ego was the only reason Mitch opened the season in 2020.

All that said, I understand what Nagy was trying to do and why. Change is okay, I have no issue with this (I would've drilled him if he hadn't) but he was doing way too much. Changing your playbook doesn't only change for the QB but for the rest of the players on offense as well.

3) Nagy not taking advantage of the very few strengths Mitch showed in college and 2017. (i.e Mitch's ability to throw on the run, and Mitch was never afraid to throw to the sticks--he was always looking for a 1st down no matter what down and the distance was-- but with Nagy he played scared).

But again, these were hardly the main cause of Mitch's own failures and have nothing to do with Fields' development right now. If I start to see the same things happen with Fields then we can revisit this topic, but I'm not about jump conclusions before the kid takes a snap in the NFL. 

Now, I ask you (and anyone else). In what ways did Nagy do so wrong with Mitch that stopped him from becoming a successful QB, and in turn makes you think he's done so wrong with Fields development during the offseason?

[JAF-N72EX]

7 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

Probably because it's getting nearly impossible to defend anything Nagy does or says

Now, I ask you (and anyone else). In what ways did Nagy do so wrong with Mitch that stopped him from becoming a successful QB, and in turn makes you think he's done so wrong with Fields development during the offseason?

8 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

I think the OL looked bad but ultimately they'll gel. Regardless, isn't a bad OL reason to play a mobile (and good) QB? Further, if the OL stinks so bad, Dalton will be hurt in no time, and then Fields will have to play.

No. Especially an OL who will only have 1 week of practice together.

12 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

Smith was playing great football though.

What? No. Smith was a game manager at best. He was terrible before the Chiefs and Ried got the most out of him and the most he got out of Smith was average.

[JAF-N72EX]

19 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

I understand that. Barkley is also an incredible athlete. My point was the surgery has come so far and plenty of guys come back in 10-12 months (sometimes earlier if you're a freak like AD was). Like you said back in August I fully expected Cohen to be out there vs LA despite being somewhat suspect as my original post said; there just was no talk about him. Now, I'm having doubts we'll see him even in week 7

Surgery doesn't matter when it comes to differences in ACLs though. There are different levels to it among other factors (recovery process, each person heals different, etc).

[soulman]

34 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Now, I ask you (and anyone else). In what ways did Nagy do so wrong with Mitch that stopped him from becoming a successful QB, and in turn makes you think he's done so wrong with Fields development during the offseason?

Lemme open by stating that Nagy didn't choose Mitch, Pace did.  Nagy "inherited" Mitch.

Next lemme state that your opinion that Mitch was a "bust" from the get go is no more than that.

If you'd like to change that to Mitch needed more seasoning as a starter at the college level and would have benefited more from playing behind a capable NFL starter like Dalton as Fields is now then we might get somewhere.  But I won't accept that somehow you had the prescience to know Mitch would fail the very day he was drafted.  It was 50/50 and you seem to have guessed correctly as far as the Bears are concerned.  How it all works out from here we don't know.

OK, now I'll address the questions asked and it's not that complex.

Nagy came in with a preconceived notion of how he imagined Mitch should perform in his offensive schemes and he kept pushing that approach throughout.  Once he (and Pace) realized that may not be possible he had two choices.  Suggest Pace trade Mitch then to recover draft capital or toss out his preconceived notions and build around Mitch as he was.

IMHO the Bears have failed so many times to develop the QBs they have drafted and/or traded for simply because they have lacked the know how to do it.  If Mitch was the very first failure I might be more tempted to accept your position but he was far from it.  The list is very very long and filled with failures.  We can always debate why if you like but the facts can't be denied.

IMHO a HC more secure in his own ability to adapt his schemes to the talent he had as opposed to the talent he simply wished or imagined he had is where Matt Nagy failed with Mitch Trubisky and with his offenses in general.  What's done is done but this season should show whether or not Matt Nagy should be the HC who get to work with yet another young QB.

 

[beardown3231]

53 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Now, I ask you (and anyone else). In what ways did Nagy do so wrong with Mitch that stopped him from becoming a successful QB, and in turn makes you think he's done so wrong with Fields development during the offseason?

No. Especially an OL who will only have 1 week of practice together.

What? No. Smith was a game manager at best. He was terrible before the Chiefs and Ried got the most out of him and the most he got out of Smith was average.

I never said anything about Trubisky. I'm talking about Nagy. Trubisky sucks, Nagy or not.

So a potentially bad OL isn't a reason to play the better and more athletic QB?

Smith threw for 4,000 yards and like 30 TD's that year. IIRC he led  the league in passer rating. He was playing great football

Edited September 10, 2021 by beardown3231

[beardown3231]

47 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Surgery doesn't matter when it comes to differences in ACLs though. There are different levels to it among other factors (recovery process, each person heals different, etc).

You obviously didn't think so. You said 5 weeks ago Cohen will be fine and he'll be limited week 1.

[JAF-N72EX]

4 minutes ago, soulman said:

Lemme open by stating that Nagy didn't choose Mitch, Pace did.  Nagy "inherited" Mitch.

Yeah, I stated this already....

6 minutes ago, soulman said:

Next lemme state that your opinion that Mitch was a "bust" from the get go is no more than that.

You asked me my opinion and reasoning behind it and I gave it to you. Don't turn it around and throw it back in my face.

Don't do that.

 

5 minutes ago, soulman said:

Once he (and Pace) realized that may not be possible he had two choices.  Suggest Pace trade Mitch then to recover draft capital or toss out his preconceived notions and build around Mitch as he was.

In a perfect world I agree, but that was NEVER gonna happen. Pace would have never allowed him to give on Mitch that easily.

10 minutes ago, soulman said:

IMHO the Bears have failed so many times to develop the QBs they have drafted and/or traded for simply because they have lacked the know how to do it.  If Mitch was the very first failure I might be more tempted to accept your position but he was far from it.  The list is very very long and filled with failures.  We can always debate why if you like but the facts can't be denied.

IMHO a HC more secure in his own ability to adapt his schemes to the talent he had as opposed to the talent he simply wished or imagined he had is where Matt Nagy failed with Mitch Trubisky and with his offenses in general.  What's done is done but this season should show whether or not Matt Nagy should be the HC who get to work with yet another young QB.

 

This has nothing to with Nagy or the question I asked. If you want to have a discussion about the Bears former staff and their lack of development...fine. But let's save that for a separate discussion.

 

 

[JAF-N72EX]

6 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

You obviously didn't think so. You said 5 weeks ago Cohen will be fine and he'll be limited week 1.

Wut? You were talking about some random guy with the same injury....

[beardown3231]

5 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Wut? You were talking about some random guy with the same injury....

You said everyone is different. On August 1 you evidently thought he would be fine and obviously you were basing it off recent ACL injuries and the comebacks that ensued

Edited September 10, 2021 by beardown3231

[JAF-N72EX]

2 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

You said everyone is different. On August 1 you evidently thought he would be fine and obviously you were basing it off recent ACL injuries and the comebacks that ensued

Wut lol? By his own account, he was fine. It was not based on off of recent injuries, bitcoin, or the temperature in space. What the hell are you rambling about now?

[soulman]

35 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Yeah, I stated this already....

I thought point one made it Nagy's decision when it predated his hire.  Maybe I just read it wrong.

You asked me my opinion and reasoning behind it and I gave it to you. Don't turn it around and throw it back in my face.

Don't do that.

I wasn't aware that I phrased it quite that way but if so mea culpa and my apologies. I also had some of my own doubts but they were more attached to his lack of college starting experience and a winning record.  But I didn't doubt the tangibles like size, mobility, arm strength, accuracy, etc.  What couldn't be seen then was what was inside his head.

 

In a perfect world I agree, but that was NEVER gonna happen. Pace would have never allowed him to give on Mitch that easily.

I can't predict how Pace may have responded but even so if as HC I could not see a fit for my offense then it's my obligation to tell my GM that we either need to replace our QB or I'm gonna need to change my entire approach to his development along with my entire offensive scheme.  You admit that Mitch can't be made to fit and put the burden of that decision on Pace.  If he refuses to deal him then you change your schemes.  Nagy was either too insecure or totally incapable of doing that.  Personally I think it's a bit of both.

 

This has nothing to with Nagy or the question I asked. If you want to have a discussion about the Bears former staff and their lack of development...fine. But let's save that for a separate discussion.

Fair enough but you have to admit our track record of doing right by the QBs we've chosen has been dismal.  My greatest concern is whether or not the will finally end here with Justin Fields.  I think the kid can become an All Pro yet I don't fully trust Nagy to get him there.  But that too is a debate for another day.

 

 

Did my best to parcel my responses individually to each of your responses.

Edited September 10, 2021 by soulman

[JAF-N72EX]

17 minutes ago, soulman said:

Yeah, I stated this already....

I thought point one made it Nagy's decision when it predated his hire.  Maybe I just read it wrong.

No. You got it right. I think where on the same elevator, just on different floors here lol.

My point was Nagy was the hottest available HC at the time and he could've gone anywhere. He made the decision to come here knowing he was expecting to make Mitch work in his offense and I don't think choosing the Bears/Mitch was the right choice for him in hindsight.

I didn't say Mitch was Nagy's choice during the draft (which is what I thought you were saying)..... only that Nagy ultimately chose Mitch as the QB to work with at the time.

I hope this clears up what seems to be a misunderstanding.

32 minutes ago, soulman said:

I wasn't aware that I phrased it quite that way but if so mea culpa and my apologies. I also had some of my own doubts but they were more attached to his lack of college starting experience and a winning record.  But I didn't doubt the tangibles like size, mobility, arm strength, accuracy, etc.  What couldn't be seen then was what was inside his head.

NP. Moving on brotha. This is was my concern as well along with a division that featured a lackluster defense that year which gave Mitch an opportunity to pad stats.

I agree with the intangibles and his inability to absorb info, too. Mitch and Mahomes were top-2 on my list in this regard IIRC. I thought Watson mobility was overrated, Mitch was too raw, and Mahhomes had the best of succeeding, but even that seemed like a stretch to me at the time. This is why I didn't care for the QB class to begin with.

 

33 minutes ago, soulman said:

Fair enough but you have to admit our track record of doing right by the QBs we've chosen has been dismal.  My greatest concern is whether or not the will finally end here with Justin Fields.  I think the kid can become an All Pro yet I don't fully trust Nagy to get him there.  But that too is a debate for another day.

This team has a terrible history in development. Not going to deny this one bit. If there is one organization that flunk up a prospect QB like Fields then it's this one for sure. No doubt about it. I have made jokes about this (but hauntingly half-***-serious at the same time).

With our luck, I could seriously see Fields not working out either due to injury or Watson reasons while Mitch turns out to be a good QB. That's our luck lol.

[abstract_thought]

11 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

It seems odd that so many people are criticizing Nagy's approach before Fields takes a single snap in the NFL.

The Bears’ current plan relies on Nagy’s assessment of Fields’ “readiness” to play. Nagy has rarely shown any skill in making these types of decisions. The last QB he assessed as “ready” ended up regressing horribly.

11 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Dalton is an "established" veteran on a playoff team too....🤷‍♀️

He’s not established with the Bears and he’s never been an integral part of a Bears playoff team. His most recent role was as a backup. Comparing him to Smith or Favre is a pretty far stretch.

11 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

...And for every Watson, there are dozens of Mitch's, Darnold's, RG3, Leafs, and Haskins'.

So we agree that the anecdotal cases are all over the place. And the actual numbers say there is no correlation between QB success and games sat. Which means the Bears are bucking the current NFL trend on the basis of Nagy and Pace’s expertise. Do you trust them?

[beardown3231]

11 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Wut lol? By his own account, he was fine. It was not based on off of recent injuries, bitcoin, or the temperature in space. What the hell are you rambling about now?

And how did that work out? Has he even hit the practice field?

[dll2000]

13 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

 

Now, I ask you (and anyone else). In what ways did Nagy do so wrong with Mitch that stopped him from becoming a successful QB, and in turn makes you think he's done so wrong with Fields development during the offseason?

I am fine with what Nagy did with Mitch.  When Nagy came to Bears it was all about Mitch.  He got all the first team reps throughout offseason and camp.

Mitch got every opportunity to succeed with Nagy and didn't.

I disagree with the Fields is Mahomes and Dalton is Smith and we are going to repeat history plan because that is way coach Reid did it.    

I think you need reps to get better or your process is significantly and artificially slowed by coaches choice.    

I would note too if memory serves that when Reid had McNabb - McNabb played a lot his rookie year.  Badly, but he played.   I would argue that the only reason Mahomes didn't play was because Chiefs were A) contenders without him and B) Smith was playing too well to justify benching him in season for a rookie.