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Giants' GM Jerry Reese: 'I'm the reason we're 1-6'

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13 minutes ago, Shockey1979 said:

Well for one because position coaches answer to the coordinators, who answer to the HC, who answers to the GM, who answers to the owners. When it comes to talent and depth it's all on Reese. He has total control. He chooses his scouts, he makes the picks, he signs the FA's. If he feels the position coaches aren't developing his draft picks properly then he needs to instruct the coaching staff to replace them. If he's not bringing in the proper talent and depth to support the offensive and defensive schemes whether be via draft or signing he's not doing his job well.

That being said I don't exclusively blame Reese, there is alot to go around but I think he should get the lions share along with Mcadoo, the Oline, Sullivan and Eli. Mostly in that order..

Yeah sure they answer to the coordinators, but who's responsible for developing the talent? The coaches. He chooses his scouts and they are paid to do evaluate players. Like I said what is the difference in the scouting and evaluation by which in 2009-2013 is very bad in success of our picks and 2014 til now where we have had much more success?

Heres rhe overriding the question how you discern the difference between developing players and choosing the right talent. 

 

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Browsing through the scouting personnel on Giants.com looks like they are all long tenured and there hasn't been any changes during Reese's time in control. So despite his lack of hitting on picks he continues with the same scouts year after year.  Your logic doesn't really stand up with this position coach blaming. I could understand if say it was a majority of busts at one  position like say linebacker, that Reese had a horrible record with, you would say well hmmn.. maybe the LB position coach just isn't very good. But it's not.. it's LB's, Oline, WR's, CB's... he has a ton of busts across all positions. His 2007 and 2008 drafts were phenomenal. Perhaps he was just lucky those 2 years.. but here we are with 10 years of drafting data to evaluate and it's a pretty pathetic track record.

 

Edited by Shockey1979

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@Kip Smithers is making some valid points. I don't know your team well enough to know where the blame lies in regards to Jerry Reese, but coaching (namely, player development) plays a key role in draft success.

For example, under Fisher, the Rams struck gold on nearly every defensive player we took in the early rounds. Meanwhile, we seemed to whiff on every offensive player we took. Some blamed Les Snead for that . . . until this year. Sean McVay took over, and suddenly, a lot of the Fisher whiffs started panning out. Gurley and Goff are looking like huge wins, and Havenstein and Brown look like they'll be quality OLs for us. Yet, at the end of last year, all four of those guys looked destined to be replaced. In addition to those four, our FA signings on offense have panned out in a major way, and our draft picks are looking incredibly promising at this juncture.

It really hammered home to me and others that the lack of success wasn't our FO's player evaluations, it was our coaching staff's inability to develop offensive talent and put them in positions to succeed (using scheming). For example, Aaron Kromer has been a godsend for us. He's one of the best OL coaches in the NFL. Jamon Brown, Rob Havenstein, and Rodger Saffold all played on last year's team when we had arguably the worst OL in the NFL. This year, they comprise three of our five starters on the OL, and our OL is one of the NFL's best thus far (it's an above average run blocking unit and one of the best pass blocking units).

I'm also reminded of the Pittsburgh Steelers. Their OLs were consistently terrible until Mike Munchak joined the team. I remember Steelers fans ripping Marcus Gilbert to shreds early in his career. Now, he's one of the NFL's best RTs because the Steelers hired arguably the best OL coach in football. Basically, the Giants' personnel issues might be entirely on Reese, or they might be partially (or mostly) on the coaching staff. I don't know your team well enough to say.

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17 hours ago, Shockey1979 said:

Browsing through the scouting personnel on Giants.com looks like they are all long tenured and there hasn't been any changes during Reese's time in control. So despite his lack of hitting on picks he continues with the same scouts year after year.  Your logic doesn't really stand up with this position coach blaming. I could understand if say it was a majority of busts at one  position like say linebacker, that Reese had a horrible record with, you would say well hmmn.. maybe the LB position coach just isn't very good. But it's not.. it's LB's, Oline, WR's, CB's... he has a ton of busts across all positions. His 2007 and 2008 drafts were phenomenal. Perhaps he was just lucky those 2 years.. but here we are with 10 years of drafting data to evaluate and it's a pretty pathetic track record.

 

You've yet to answer my question, in recent years we have had much more success than in that 2009-13 stretch. So again, what explains that? 

And another point regarding the years 2009-13. There are a number players that people perceived as steals at where we got em but because they don't pan out its Jerry's fault E.g. Hosley, Randle, Prince, Owa, Marvin Austin just to name a few. 

Blsming Reese is the easy choice. There are a number of different reasons as to why some players succeed and others don't. Those long tenured scouts have hit on picks and missed on others. And in recent years have gotten some good returns. So why all of a sudden are they "finding" more success? This is why I don't like to talk about the GM or even HC for that matter because we generally don't have a clue about what they do. 

 

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7 hours ago, Kip Smithers said:

You've yet to answer my question, in recent years we have had much more success than in that 2009-13 stretch. So again, what explains that? 

And another point regarding the years 2009-13. There are a number players that people perceived as steals at where we got em but because they don't pan out its Jerry's fault E.g. Hosley, Randle, Prince, Owa, Marvin Austin just to name a few. 

Blsming Reese is the easy choice. There are a number of different reasons as to why some players succeed and others don't. Those long tenured scouts have hit on picks and missed on others. And in recent years have gotten some good returns. So why all of a sudden are they "finding" more success? This is why I don't like to talk about the GM or even HC for that matter because we generally don't have a clue about what they do. 

 

Picks aren't good or bad because what draftniks say, they're evaluated based on how they play. It doesn't matter what the perception around that prospect is, it is a good pick if they are good and a bad pick if they are bad, and that is what reflects on Reese.

I'd argue that we aren't really finding more success in recent drafts. I think almost all of Reese's drafts have been looked at favorably immediately after and for a short period after they are concluded. Then, a few years down the line when the players haven't progressed and most of them are out of the league entirely, the perception shifts (as it should) and the draft is regarded as more of a failure. I think we will see that is the case from these last few drafts of his that are well regarded right now. OBJ and Collins are studs. Shepard is on his way to looking like a very solid pick and Kennard has been a relative steal. The rest could very well be bench players or out of the league in a couple years. It's still too early to evaluate 2017 draft, although Engram and Tomlinson both look very good.

We won two Super Bowls under Reese, but those teams were built by Accorsi. Look at his 2003, 2004, and 2005 drafts. Osi, Diehl, Tyree, Eli, Snee, Torbor, Gibril Wilson, Webster, Tuck, Jacobs. Then in 2006 he drafted Cofield, Kiwi, and Gerris Wilkinson. All of those guys were critical in our 2007 run and most were around for the 2011 one as well. Now only one remains and we haven't even been close since.

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47 minutes ago, minutemancl said:

Picks aren't good or bad because what draftniks say, they're evaluated based on how they play. It doesn't matter what the perception around that prospect is, it is a good pick if they are good and a bad pick if they are bad, and that is what reflects on Reese.

I'd argue that we aren't really finding more success in recent drafts. I think almost all of Reese's drafts have been looked at favorably immediately after and for a short period after they are concluded. Then, a few years down the line when the players haven't progressed and most of them are out of the league entirely, the perception shifts (as it should) and the draft is regarded as more of a failure. I think we will see that is the case from these last few drafts of his that are well regarded right now. OBJ and Collins are studs. Shepard is on his way to looking like a very solid pick and Kennard has been a relative steal. The rest could very well be bench players or out of the league in a couple years. It's still too early to evaluate 2017 draft, although Engram and Tomlinson both look very good.

We won two Super Bowls under Reese, but those teams were built by Accorsi. Look at his 2003, 2004, and 2005 drafts. Osi, Diehl, Tyree, Eli, Snee, Torbor, Gibril Wilson, Webster, Tuck, Jacobs. Then in 2006 he drafted Cofield, Kiwi, and Gerris Wilkinson. All of those guys were critical in our 2007 run and most were around for the 2011 one as well. Now only one remains and we haven't even been close since.

First off my point on how the picks were perceived at their selection is to show that what happens after that isnt necessarily on the GM. It shouldn't reflect on Reese If you don't just focus on the results. The draft selection is just another part in draft process. These players aren't finished products. After they are picked it's now on the coaches and the coordinators to get most out of them. The thing is that we only ever see the selection and the result therefore we jump to the GM based on the result which isn't fair. 

Wait so if those picks are looked favourably earlier on and then as you say are out of the league soon after, you can't just put that on Reese. Their has to be reasons for that. My other problem is that you have to compare the success of lack of success around the league. We may still be bad in that aspect. 

The 2011 SB you will find that the best players on that team outside of the QB were Reese's picks. Our WR trio were all under Reese' tenure. JPP the best defensive player that year was a Reese pick. Kenny Phillips as well. Then FAs like Canty, Rolle.

Edited by Kip Smithers

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On 10/29/2017 at 8:14 AM, Kip Smithers said:

You've yet to answer my question, in recent years we have had much more success than in that 2009-13 stretch. So again, what explains that? 

And another point regarding the years 2009-13. There are a number players that people perceived as steals at where we got em but because they don't pan out its Jerry's fault E.g. Hosley, Randle, Prince, Owa, Marvin Austin just to name a few. 

Blsming Reese is the easy choice. There are a number of different reasons as to why some players succeed and others don't. Those long tenured scouts have hit on picks and missed on others. And in recent years have gotten some good returns. So why all of a sudden are they "finding" more success? This is why I don't like to talk about the GM or even HC for that matter because we generally don't have a clue about what they do. 

 

Have we though? It's still early on some of them but 2014 gave us one stud and a few average players, most of which likely won't be on the team past their rookie contract. 2015 gave us Landon Collins and a bunch of busts. 2016 has potential but Apple, DT, Goodson and Perkins could all be busts. 2017 is way too early.

Our failures are definitely a combination of factors but I'm placing the majority of blame on McAdoo for this year. Not saying he deserves to be fired or anything but he needs to learn how to get his guys ready to play better. In the Coughlin era, the Giants consistently responded to adversity with GREAT games. Whenever the media started to get on them and it looked like the season was in jeopardy, they'd come out and dominate. You don't see that from this Giants team. They've never put together a gameplan that just takes over. 

 

 

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@GMENNATION In the Coughlin era we missed the playoffs 4 straight times after our Superbowl win. How is that responding to adversity? 

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4 hours ago, GMENNATION said:

Have we though? It's still early on some of them but 2014 gave us one stud and a few average players, most of which likely won't be on the team past their rookie contract. 2015 gave us Landon Collins and a bunch of busts. 2016 has potential but Apple, DT, Goodson and Perkins could all be busts. 2017 is way too early.

Our failures are definitely a combination of factors but I'm placing the majority of blame on McAdoo for this year. Not saying he deserves to be fired or anything but he needs to learn how to get his guys ready to play better. In the Coughlin era, the Giants consistently responded to adversity with GREAT games. Whenever the media started to get on them and it looked like the season was in jeopardy, they'd come out and dominate. You don't see that from this Giants team. They've never put together a gameplan that just takes over. 

 

 

2014 gave us two other starters after OBJ. That's a solid draft and given how we got a superstar in that draft we I consider it a great draft. Kennard is a solid player or average. Richburg is a good Center by all accounts. 

2015 gave us Collins and Bobby Hart an below average at best RT in the 6th round. Owa is a bust. Flowers has played well most of this year or at least competently, first and second game aside. 2016 is too early. The Giants responded vs Denver with everything going against them. And you're forgetting 2013 season where we started 0-6, we didn't exactly respond to adversity then. 

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@Kip Smithers

I agree with you on 2014. Flowers is still playing poorly. Just because he isn't playing as bad as last year does not excuse that he is probably our biggest bust in history.

2016 is also shaping up to be a below average draft. Its completely unacceptable that 2 top 10 picks in back to back drafts are shaping up at best to be below average players.

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1 hour ago, Acgott said:

@Kip Smithers

I agree with you on 2014. Flowers is still playing poorly. Just because he isn't playing as bad as last year does not excuse that he is probably our biggest bust in history.

2016 is also shaping up to be a below average draft. Its completely unacceptable that 2 top 10 picks in back to back drafts are shaping up at best to be below average players.

Flowers isn't just playing better than last year. He's playing solidly. Unless there is film to dispute his play over the couple of weeks. Eli Apple I have faith in him. The talent is there and you can see why he was picked highly. He plays a difficult position and you're gonna have to be patient with him. Xavier Rhodes faced the same problem that Eli is facing and he's regarded as a top corner in this league. Be patient with him. 2016 we got Shepard who looks like a good pick. Darian Thompson whos basically in his rookie year. Perkins meh. He's not been good this year and isn't a fit behind this line. 

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I think William Joseph was a bigger bust than Flowers is. But that is just semantics at this point. 

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So what's this "in recent years we've been better" talk?  In the last 20 years:

12-4 (2008, 2000)

11-5 (2016, 2005)

10-6 (2010, 2007, 2002)

9-7 (2012, 2011)

http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/teams.nsf/histories/giants

3 out of the last 4 years have been losing records.  As for last season 8 of our wins were by 7 or fewer points.  That's not a sustainable model.  Just adding some facts to the discussion :P

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29 minutes ago, minutemancl said:

I think William Joseph was a bigger bust than Flowers is. But that is just semantics at this point. 

I'm not going to spend time arguing this, but its the #9 pick vs the #25 pick. Flowers draft position makes it not close.

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On 10/29/2017 at 8:14 AM, Kip Smithers said:

You've yet to answer my question, in recent years we have had much more success than in that 2009-13 stretch. So again, what explains that? 

And another point regarding the years 2009-13. There are a number players that people perceived as steals at where we got em but because they don't pan out its Jerry's fault E.g. Hosley, Randle, Prince, Owa, Marvin Austin just to name a few. 

Blsming Reese is the easy choice. There are a number of different reasons as to why some players succeed and others don't. Those long tenured scouts have hit on picks and missed on others. And in recent years have gotten some good returns. So why all of a sudden are they "finding" more success? This is why I don't like to talk about the GM or even HC for that matter because we generally don't have a clue about what they do. 

 

Blaming Reese is the right choice. The offensive lines has been horrible for  five years if not longer. As the GM he needed to bring in the right players to fix it and he has not. He deserves the blame  and he deserves to be fired, the only question is if Mara clean house and fires Mcadoo  as well.

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