Kip Smithers Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 8 hours ago, Acgott said: 0-2 in the top 10 is a big enough sample size. Apple can change it, but right now he's a disappointment. Of course its a whole new story at 4-3 or a winning record. But we are going to miss the playoffs for what the 5th time in 6 years? Even if you exclude this and last as outliers his past few years have been failures. Losing by 2 touchdowns is a blow out. Sigh, 3 high draft picks a high FA a "quality" FA and our OL is still a mess. That shows me he hasn't been able to hit on the OL. Its time to move on. A fresh start is needed by the team. I know I won't convince you, so I'll move on. I don't know how you can say 0-2 when one guy in his second year. And 0-2 isn't a big sample size at all an its arbitrary to say the least. Because we picked at 9 and 10 respectively. In the top 15 we picked Odell and JPP... its a whole different story yet the same problems would still be there. That's my point. Why should your perspective and attitude take a 180 turn based on a few bounces. That stuff is random. We are no worse a team or better a team if those close games go in our favour. Losing by two touchdowns is not a blowout lol. Well yeah if you hit have at least solid level o-linemen and the other two are bad it doesn't matter about the 3 solid ones. One weak link will cripple your line let alone 2. It's a unit not a position of individuals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shockwave Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 30 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said: I've already addressed that table. Ahh yes right..position coaches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Smithers Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Shockey1979 said: Ahh yes right..position coaches No not even that. Rather than looking at who is still here on the roster you look at quality of players drafted regardless if they're here or not. You look at what they contributed to us. For instance the fact Hakeem Nicks isn't here anymore doesn't mean that he wasn't a great pick. And so he's obviously not going into fall into that criteria that the table laid out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shockwave Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 Aight fine I'll follow you down the rabbit hole. I guess you're referencing your post where you did a halfass breakdown of the Pats drafts from 2009-2013 and used your subjective "players of note" as your criteria. So... - What is your criteria that makes a player a "player of note"? - You mentioned the Pats had a "ton of picks" from 2009 to 2013... yet there is no questioning their dominance so are you suggesting that Reese should instead focus on trading back, stockpiling picks and going with a high volume approach like the Pats do? - If Reese isn't as bad as we say then why do very few of his picks go on to play for other teams? If it's a matter of the Giants can't develop guys then why aren't other teams signing our castoffs and refining them into the true talented players they should have been for us? Because looking over his list of picks very few have gone on to play for other teams. - Our longest tenured position coach is the safety coach. All the others were hired after 2014. If position coaches are the ones to blame why haven't we seen an immediate improvement in the draft classes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Smithers Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 A player of note is a noteworthy player who I feel was a solid level contributor. 2 hours ago, Shockey1979 said: - You mentioned the Pats had a "ton of picks" from 2009 to 2013... yet there is no questioning their dominance so are you suggesting that Reese should instead focus on trading back, stockpiling picks and going with a high volume approach like the Pats do? No I brought that up to show you that the best team of this decade and the previous decade has had a number of picks that haven't panned out. Their draft success hasn't been below what you'd expect out of them. I simply compared one teams drafts to ours. 2 hours ago, Shockey1979 said: If Reese isn't as bad as we say then why do very few of his picks go on to play for other teams? If it's a matter of the Giants can't develop guys then why aren't other teams signing our castoffs and refining them into the true talented players they should have been for us? Because looking over his list of picks very few have gone on to play for other teams. Wait so our picks have to be journeymen to illustrate that coaching isn't the issue? The majority of players who get cut from rosters are guys drafted in the later rounds. Reese isn't as bad because comparatively speaking there arent many that you can definitively say that have had more success than him. You can point to that table all you want but you cant conclude anything from that. Now if you're able to show me other teams success compared to ours then fine. 2 hours ago, Shockey1979 said: Our longest tenured position coach is the safety coach. All the others were hired after 2014. If position coaches are the ones to blame why haven't we seen an immediate improvement in the draft classes? I said there are a number of reasons why picks don't work out. Not one reason applies to everybody.And I posed why is coaching never a factor. But to go back to your third point, what does it tell that players who have left here tend to not be near as productive as they did when they played for us? You say all our position coaches were hired after 2014, why have I been seen some FA acquisitiond be more productive than ever? See I never said coaching is the reason why our picks , I asked why is that never one of reasons why a player fails rather than "well the GM just picked the wrong player". Not to mention I pointed out that Selecting players is not done by one man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acgott Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 12 hours ago, Kip Smithers said: its a whole different story yet the same problems would still be there. That's my point. Why should your perspective and attitude take a 180 turn based on a few bounces. That stuff is random. We are no worse a team or better a team if those close games go in our favour. Reese and McAdoo have refused to adjust and fix our problems from last year. A lot of winning is luck, but when you blow multiple leads it’s more than that. It’s coaching. It’s the players. I don’t understand why you want to keep the same formula. We have had one good year in six years. Clearly it is not working and adjustments need to be made. Reese and McAdoo have shown they refuse to make the necessary adjustments to turn around our team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Smithers Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 2 hours ago, Acgott said: Reese and McAdoo have refused to adjust and fix our problems from last year. A lot of winning is luck, but when you blow multiple leads it’s more than that. It’s coaching. It’s the players. I don’t understand why you want to keep the same formula. We have had one good year in six years. Clearly it is not working and adjustments need to be made. Reese and McAdoo have shown they refuse to make the necessary adjustments to turn around our team. I'm assuming that those problems you are referring to are the O-line? Do people not realise that this past offseason was a horrible year to address the o-line FA wasnt strong and those who were available were out our price range. The draft was horrible. Secondly they addressed issues regarding our receiving depth. Outside of Odell itv was easy to defend and we got two big weapons. Im not in the business of hiring and firing coaches. If McAdoo has lost control of the team as it looks like from the outside looking in then sure you have to consider a change. It's not about me wanting to keep the same formula. I just don't do the predictable coach and GM blaming. We got rid of Coughlin and the very next year we make the playoffs. As for Jerry, I don't know even a quarter of the intricacies of his job. So asking him to be fired is naive. And the one thing we do know about is incredibly random. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acgott Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 19 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said: I'm assuming that those problems you are referring to are the O-line? Do people not realise that this past offseason was a horrible year to address the o-line FA wasnt strong and those who were available were out our price range. The draft was horrible. Secondly they addressed issues regarding our receiving depth. Outside of Odell itv was easy to defend and we got two big weapons. Im not in the business of hiring and firing coaches. If McAdoo has lost control of the team as it looks like from the outside looking in then sure you have to consider a change. It's not about me wanting to keep the same formula. I just don't do the predictable coach and GM blaming. We got rid of Coughlin and the very next year we make the playoffs. As for Jerry, I don't know even a quarter of the intricacies of his job. So asking him to be fired is naive. And the one thing we do know about is incredibly random. Using the cap is always a horrible excuse. If you want money, you can get money. With the OL help- Whitworth has a $9.1M cap hit. We could have tried to sign him instead of Marshall and/or Fluker. A bunch of other options we could have made work. http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2017/10/not_many_choices_meet_the_o-line_upgrades_giants_g.html The Offensive play calling was simple last year and still was this year. When a team has the 12th worst record in the NFL for the past 5 years coming off a Super Bowl win, it’s time to realize that our highest football man is no longer doing as well as he should. As the VP of the Giants, it’s his responsibility to create competing teams. If he has hired bad people, that is on him. He has shown over these past 6 years that he cannot fulfill a good football team. http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2017/11/a_sobering_look_at_how_far_the_giants_have_fallen.html#incart_river_index Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Smithers Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Acgott said: Using the cap is always a horrible excuse. If you want money, you can get money. With the OL help- Whitworth has a $9.1M cap hit. We could have tried to sign him instead of Marshall and/or Fluker. A bunch of other options we could have made work. http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2017/10/not_many_choices_meet_the_o-line_upgrades_giants_g.html The Offensive play calling was simple last year and still was this year. When a team has the 12th worst record in the NFL for the past 5 years coming off a Super Bowl win, it’s time to realize that our highest football man is no longer doing as well as he should. As the VP of the Giants, it’s his responsibility to create competing teams. If he has hired bad people, that is on him. He has shown over these past 6 years that he cannot fulfill a good football team. http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2017/11/a_sobering_look_at_how_far_the_giants_have_fallen.html#incart_river_index See I completely understand not signing Whitworth. Hes going on 36. Rick Wagner and Reiff, more expensive options but it could've been done and you can say that a genuine gripe. That said we only had money to get one of them realistically and that's no guarantee. They armed with more info than us so I'm sure they considered their options. I'm sure that if they were cheaper then they probably would've pulled the trigger. Look at our FA signings in offseason they were all friendly and cheap deals. In reaction to that record we got rid of our long time head coach and the next year we make the playoffs and in second year with SB aspirations it's been horrible. We got rid of our head coach and then our FO injected talent onto this roster and made it one of the best defenses in the league. So last year he was able to fulfil the talent but this year he can't? The problem with this team is painfully obvious to see. It's not overall talent of the roster. It's that one unit on the team is having a cumulative effect because guess what o-lines are pretty important. Like we don't need to clean house to address one area of the team. If the Giants feel they can get somebody who can "fix" whatever needs fixing and that Jerry can't do it then go ahead and do it. But just don't do it to appease your stakeholders. Ultimately the aim is to build a roster to compete for a SB and we thought we had that, but we were wrong. But we aren't far off. Just a good o-line away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acgott Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 It’s more then just the OL. They didn’t blow 3 straight leads. The team is broken and that starts at the top. It’s clear based on the past 6 years that last season is a fluke and not a positive trend. The OL epidemic is not only with the Giants. Many teams have terrible lines for various reasons. That is not an excuse, especially since we have had this issue for numerous years. There are plenty of examples where a team has one good season and falls back to their mean (Bucs 2010), (Dolphins 2008), (Vikings 2012), (Browns 2007j It sucks to admit it, but it just didn’t work out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Smithers Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 18 hours ago, Acgott said: It’s more then just the OL. They didn’t blow 3 straight leads. The team is broken and that starts at the top. It’s clear based on the past 6 years that last season is a fluke and not a positive trend. The OL epidemic is not only with the Giants. Many teams have terrible lines for various reasons. That is not an excuse, especially since we have had this issue for numerous years. There are plenty of examples where a team has one good season and falls back to their mean (Bucs 2010), (Dolphins 2008), (Vikings 2012), (Browns 2007j It sucks to admit it, but it just didn’t work out. This ain't the mean though lol. This is so far below the mean. Those comparison don't apply here lol. Last season was a lucky season because we won a number of close games. In 2015 it was the opposite. Again, our o-line has only been a problem these past two years. 2011 it was average/serviceable. 2012- Serviceable. 2013 - Horrific. 2014 - solid. 2015 - serviceable. 2016-17 flat out horrible. It's a problem and it has a knock on effect on the whole team. It where successful teams are built. Every team had holes, we just can't hide those holes like other teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMENNATION Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 It's easy to debate the OL and somehow relate it to whether Reese/McAdoo should or should not be fired but it's not even close to just the OL so that's truthfully an old argument. In 2015 we had a historically bad defense, spent a lot on it last season and they had a very good year. Now another year later, with all the same guys, they are one of the worst units in the league. Of course, the injuries play a part here but we have no depth and the team obviously was not ready to play yesterday. It's certainly a little bit of everything that is contributing to this horrible season but that's all the more reason to clean house and bring in a fresh perspective. I'm not a big "clean house" guy in general because solid organizations understand the importance of continuity but it's been too much. No more promoting from within (McAdoo) and bringing back coaches from the glory days (Spagnuolo). Give us something completely fresh. I was all-in with this team and still can't believe we're this bad but it is what it is. We have a few cornerstone guys to build around but we need to reset the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Championshiporbust Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 I grew up a Giants fan. I am disappointed. I will root for other teams--Rams, Saints, Eagles. Why not? It's a free country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Smithers Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 When I say it's just the o-line I am referring to the bigger picture. Of course the o-line isn't just the reasons we are 1-6. The defensuve drop off has been astounding to me. Yeah we have injuries and have 15 players on IR but man its brutal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thanos0341 Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 The OL & lack of a top tier RB is what has really made this team miss the playoffs 5 of the past 6 yrs imo. The D can be blamed for a few losses in that time span but the reality of it is, when your O can't sustain a clock killing drive with 4 min left in the game & goes 3 & out, unless you have a top15 D, you're asking a lot of your D to hold a single score or less lead. With all the rules in the offenses favor, it's very easy for an O to get a roughing the passer call or PI on a long pass play that can then set up the other team for a GW FG or even TD to win the game. The Giants have had a putrid OL/run game ever since Bradshaw's last season with us in 2012, which was also the last time a Giants RB rushed for over 1000yds BTW. Eli had good seasons stats wise due mostly to OBJ, not cuz the OL was so good in pass pro. The slant play is their bread & butter play due to opposing defenses playing the 2 high safety to take away the deep threat from OBJ. When's the last time you saw Eli connect with OBJ on a deep bomb for a score? This team has too much talent to have gone 3-13 last yr. 2017 was just a supreme example of "Murphy's law". Every thing that could go wrong , did go wrong. I'd never seen 3 WRs go down in the same game to season ending injuries like the Giants did vs the Chargers, that right there told me, 2017 was a cursed yr. Not to mention losing 3 games in a row the way the Giants did vs Phil/TB/LA, games that if the O can sustain a run game & kill the clock, we win. With Solder & Hernandez & Barkley in the O this yr to go along with a healthy OBJ/Shep/Engram/Gallman, there is really no reason the Giants O shouldn't put up 27ppg or more. This is possibly the best Giants offense on paper anyway, that I have seen this team field in many a yr. The D has also been improved imo, especially at the LBer position, something Reese paid little mind to during his tenure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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