Lions at Steelers Pre-GDT

[warfelg]

1 minute ago, Dcash4 said:

I rewatched some of the game, Chuks is just peaks and valleys. I thought he did well on placing himself and moving in the run game, but it seems like his mind is 100% focused on where to be and he goes blank at the POA. Had a couple times against the rush where he got in great position but when the defender hit him it just all went to hell. 

I don't know enough about O-Line play to talk confidently about what he is working on or not, but he was almost Michael Oher with the snap count and getting into his kick step to get depth. Felt over exaggerated, but that was what he was working on this week. I thought it also lead to him being out of place or too deep in the arch and put him in Bens lap pretty easily.

When he met defenders earlier in his drop he basically stoned them. But when they got to him deeper it was like Talledega nights and he didn't know what to do with his hands. 

I thought Moore looked good at RT despite seeming uncomfortable. My hope is they checked that box and will now have him play a ton of LT this week and in the 4th game. 

Banner seemed to be fine too. He moved pretty well in the run game. Him, Green, and Dotson are going to be a problem in the run game (good version of problem, not the bad one). 

Speaking of Green....talk about another Peaks and Valleys guy. We are going to be screaming about Pro Bowl on one play and them some will call him a bum the next. Definitely more good then bad from what I saw, but the things he struggles with we are just going to have to live with for now. He is 6'2, "300"lbs....theres going to be occasional hick-ups anchoring. 

It looks like with the OL the new scheme is build a wall with the interior and force the pass rusher to go with depth.  Basically make the DL have to rush Ben from behind and give him space to step up.  Looks like Okorafor is trying so hard to hit a spot on his drop that he's unable to play the rush move properly.  It's happening on the right side as well with Moore and Haeg when they are in there.  My optimism on the right side is Banner is so big and long that he can protect against the inside move so well and gaining depth is so easy that he won't need much help.

Basically, looks to my eye like they are playing inside zone.  The hard part there, like I said, is inside zone often puts the OT's on islands.  The reason why you see Okorafor doing well when he meets the defender early is because he knows he took away an inside move and can make them go deep easier.  When he has to gain too much depth first, he flaps his arms to get there, so his hands aren't in postition.

It looks to me like they want Okorafor taking a bigger first two kicks than he's capable of taking.  I feel that them getting off the ball and running it well is going to be what really helps Okorafor.  Running the ball and getting him downhill will get the defense playing on their heels some.  So when he needs to make a deep pass set, he can focus on getting depth, then get his hands into position and the rush won't be there yet because they slowed waiting for the run.

 

As for Green, I'll just restate what I said about him:

Rookie player who's had only 2 NCAA games at the C position to get used to it.  Like Okorafor he looks like a guy who's thinking through his sets rather than playing.

 

With guys like these two it comes down to this:

Peaks - Playing on instinct and not thinking.  This is when all the coaching plays off and comes together.

Valleys - Thinking through the reps and worried about hitting spots.  This is when the coach is kinda in their ear about something.

[Dcash4]

57 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Peaks - Playing on instinct and not thinking.  This is when all the coaching plays off and comes together.

Valleys - Thinking through the reps and worried about hitting spots.  This is when the coach is kinda in their ear about something.

And this is the big part for me why I would elect to continue to slow play 4th round pick DMJ. At this point, Chuks is what he is. He is either going to sink or swim from a development standpoint, but Dan still has a ton of road ahead of him. I would rather him focusing on his craft, even if just for a short term period, than playing live snaps where he is concentrating on correcting flaws, the study tape of pass rusher, and remember the plays all at the same time. 

I don't want to stunt development at this point or not fix poor tendencies. Three weeks ago Moore was getting his butt kicked and has since progressed nicely. But I would like things to feel like they all go into Box A above rather than having him dipping into box B more and more. 

[Steeler Hitman]

3 minutes ago, warfelg said:

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Well, that's the issue, he doesn't have that ability to do so and is trying to anyways.

I just don't see that. I would like to see him try harder. I think him getting thrown in as the starter in 2019 hurt more than it helped. He had some early success game managing, but games like the san Francisco game where a proven veteran would have put the 49'ers in a huge hole and changed the complexion of the game ( a la the Browns play-off game down 28-0 in the first quarter). I wasn't expecting him to be Baker Mayfield, but they failed to cash in with TD's or any points on several of those turnovers, if I recall. If a team turns the ball over five times, you are supposed to win. Only his second game, but they don't set the plate much better for you than that. I don't disagree with the assessment, just the try/effort part. Take some chances and don't be afraid to make a mistake. You're gonna make them anyway... Be aggressive, but be smart.

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Not saying that they don't want to win, or still believed they can start.  I know Batch and Gradkowski have both said on NFL Radio that if you don't think you can be a starter that you might as well hang it up.  They said at that point with the Steelers, they both realized the league values them as a backup, so they know their role is to prepare as if you will be the starter, but be there as a support system for the starter.  There's value in guys that know and understand the role they are asked to play as a backup.  

I agree with everything you said there. However, Mason is not at that point where he has started for any significant period or has hit his ceiling in terms of development. He doesn't even have one full season's worth of games under his belt yet due to injuries. Jury is still out so to speak. 

I personally don't have trust in a young drafted guy to understand that over a career backup (Chase Daniels, Nick Foles) or lesser starter who can't get a starting gig (Geno Smith, Case Keenum).  Especially when you got a vet no duh starter like Ben, you should have move value in guys like that, who yes want to impress other teams and put good tape (not saying they don't want to); but they understand what's best for the team and best for the tape is making the right plays not the big play on each down.  

I don't think that Mason is trying to help himself at the expense of the team. I think Mason could help both causes by loosening up some. Let the ball fly. Be smart and take what the defense gives you. That comes with experience and success breeds confidence. Sometimes you have to put yourself in a position to be successful. Funny how the media gets on Haskins for throwing so many check-down's, but it seems we want Mason to let er rip. They have different issues, etc., but I don't think Haskins is afraid to make a mistake. Just from my perception of their play thus far. 

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In that 2019 year there was more trying to hit windows from Duck and Mason than even Ben would normally take.  So many times there was Conner or Washington or Juju running under the coverage with no one within 10 yards of them and they didn't get the pass,

I don't think that was because they were trying to make the difficult throw, they didn't go through all their progressions and didn't know how to consistently throw if the #1 option wasn't there. I loved Duck for his Moxy. He made mistakes, but he had some success, He exceeded expectations as a rookie free agent who won some NFL games. He was extremely limited in terms of QB skill-set, preparation, etc., yet played like there was no tomorrow. I just want to see some of that from Mason who has more talent and should be able to look off a receiver and bait a defender with his eyes. 

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meanwhile someone doubled is who saw the target, trying to make the impressive play.  To me that's the difference between a backup QB who understands the backup job vs a young QB who sees this as his shot to do something.

Disagree that this is what Mason was doing. Again take a look at the 49'ers game where he was scared to let it go. When he did, he had some success with the TD to Dionte. More often than not, particularly early, he threw underneath and like this preseason could not punch the ball into the endzone despite having golden opportunities inside the redzone or starting with great field position. 

Let's break these guys own IMO:

Andy Dalton - He's going to become the new Ryan Fitzpatrick IMO.  A guy who when he's your backup you feel really good because he's a bottom end starter, but when he's your planned starter, you don't like because he's a bottom end starter (from a fan perspective).  

I agree completely with your assessment of Andy.

Jacoby Brissett - I think he's about 2 years away from just latching onto one team as the backup for good.  He's with Miami now, where there's still an outside shot he could start because Tua sucks.  Once he signs with a team that's got the "no duh" starter, I think he'll settle into a great backup QB.

I think Jacoby is a solid back-up. Way too early on Tua. You have to let these young guys develop. Everyone wants a Justin Herbert. Those guys don't come a dime a dozen. Don't be surprised if he has some struggles year two now that defenses have tape on him. Not saying he won't be successful, just saying it won't be as easy. It takes young players time to develop. Even Tom Brady was a game a prototypical game manger early in his career. You invest a #1, you also have to invest some patience. In my humble opinion, he should not have been thrust into the starters position year one. They had Fitzmagic. No need to force him into the lineup. Defenses caught up to him ( just like they did Duck and Mason when they played)and now you have damaged his confidence and the media and fans have higher expectations than they should.

Mitchell Trubisky - I think that this season will be the start of him learning he's a career backup.  He might not even play in season at all barring a major injury to Allen.  But even if he does, he's still going to miss easy passes, make bad reads, and take bad sacks.  But if he can dedicate to becoming a great film and lockerroom guy, you learn to live with some of that as a backup.

I think he is in an offense that plays to his skillset.  His skills are very similar to Allen's. The coaches in Buffalo have done great things with Allen's development and also did not put too much pressure on him early. This could pay off for Mitch and elevate his game as he has zero pressure to do anything except learn as long as Allen stays healthy. While not the biggest Tribisky fan based on where he was drafted, I do think he has some tools. I think he can become that Andy Dalton type as a great back-up realistically who could be a starter and win with the right tools around him. I don't think he will ever be confused with Aaron Rogers, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady or Big Ben. (in his prime an upper tier/superior/elite QB. 

Marcus Mariota - Ok, now we are getting to the interesting names here.  Marcus Mariota likely didn't have the chance to play enough to know he's better off as a backup.  He got hurt, and Tannehill played great.  So to Marcus, he's likely feeling like he's still a starter, he just needs the chance.  Especially with playing well filling in for Carr last year.  He's not a backup I would want because in his mind he's just buying time until someone needs a starter again over dedicating himself to the role.

He was the second player taken in the draft. If we could have taken him and let him sit and develop, most fans would be doing cartwheels. He has talent and upside. Sometimes too much is given and expected too soon. If I were a billionaire, I would not by my 16 year old son a Maserati as  his first car. Not responsible enough and not experienced enough as a driver. I am setting him up to fail. He has a superior car that looks good and goes over 100 mph. You can tell him not to drive that fast, but when he gets with his friends or a pretty girl he's trying to impress.........🙏 Both Mariota and Winston were made to play too early. Jameis had some maturity issues and Marcus needed time to develop. I would have loved to have either and allowed them to sit and wait behind Ben. 

Dwayne Haskins - To me he very much fits the Mariota mold.  A starter that lost his job, that wasn't in his mind a warranted loss of job, so how dedicated is he going to be to supporting Ben over looking for a way to make himself a starter elsewhere if he got the chance to play.

Different scenario in that Haskins got cut and passed on by everyone. He had to eat quite a few pretty big slices of humble pie. Even Ron Rivera said that he handled Haskins wrong. He was given the starting job and made a captain. Early in Ben's career he was not a captain for the same reasons (great talent, but very immature).  Step one for Haskins is just to prove he can simply be a good teammate and has learned from his past mistakes. With the WFT, he was made a team captain and then went out (as most single, young, multi millionaires would do to blow off some steam) at a strip club.  The big problem was it was during a pandemic and could have jeopardized the entire team potentially getting exposed to Covid.  we know that was not smart, but also not so bad like he was out getting in fights or other off the field nonsense. He was put in a leadership role and wasn't equipped or ready. Teams mishandle talent. While to much is given, must is expected. One must also know to see no wine before its time! Haskins and many others mentioned just were not ready yet. 

3 minutes ago, warfelg said:

So, for this team in this situation with our QB, I rather have Dalton or Trubisky as the backup over any of the 3 other guys.

For 2021, I would prefer Dalton and 2022 if they drafted a franchise QB prospect high. If ben sticks around, give me the up and coming talent that can learn and get comfortable in the system and with the players to lead them.  Mason has been here. Haskins has the biggest upside if all falls into place. Haskins has the God given talent and  potential to lead a football in the future. I think he has a higher potential ceiling than anyone mentioned other than Mariota and Jameis. I am talking about on field talent, arm strength, and NFL type QB abilities.

[Steeler Hitman]

3 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

I rewatched some of the game, Chuks is just peaks and valleys. I thought he did well on placing himself and moving in the run game, but it seems like his mind is 100% focused on where to be and he goes blank at the POA. Had a couple times against the rush where he got in great position but when the defender hit him it just all went to hell. 

I think that is a lack of comfort and not wanting to make a mistake. when his confidence increases and he does not have to think, look out. He can be a solid LT who can both run block and pass block. He has shown a little more mauler to him than I thought early on. It is pre-season, but I like the overall results with run blocking. 

I don't know enough about O-Line play to talk confidently about what he is working on or not, but he was almost Michael Oher with the snap count and getting into his kick step to get depth. Felt over exaggerated, but that was what he was working on this week. I thought it also lead to him being out of place or too deep in the arch and put him in Bens lap pretty easily.

That is all technique and comes together with experience and gaining confidence. Eventually he will get to where Bruce Lee describes in Enter the Dragon, "I don't tell it to hit. It hits all by itself." Chuks is obviously thinking too much and reacting which is dangerous with all of the speed and talent on the edge. 

3 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

When he met defenders earlier in his drop he basically stoned them. But when they got to him deeper it was like Talledega nights and he didn't know what to do with his hands. 

I thought Moore looked good at RT despite seeming uncomfortable. My hope is they checked that box and will now have him play a ton of LT this week and in the 4th game. 

I think that is where they  eventually want to see him play as a LT. I think he has earned the swing tackle role. 

Banner seemed to be fine too. He moved pretty well in the run game. Him, Green, and Dotson are going to be a problem in the run game (good version of problem, not the bad one). 

I am really hoping Banner is healthy and his mauling style will go a long way to helping the rushing attack with a back like Najee Harris (not Davenport).😁

Speaking of Green....talk about another Peaks and Valleys guy. We are going to be screaming about Pro Bowl on one play and them some will call him a bum the next. Definitely more good then bad from what I saw, but the things he struggles with we are just going to have to live with for now. He is 6'2, "300"lbs....there's going to be occasional hick-ups anchoring. 

Rookie, never played C full time. He is going to have some problems adjusting. We should not see this in year three.  He has a lot of learning and developing to do. That highs and lows is common. Don't get over-hyped about the highs and too down about the lows. 

2 hours ago, warfelg said:

It looks like with the OL the new scheme is build a wall with the interior and force the pass rusher to go with depth.  Basically make the DL have to rush Ben from behind and give him space to step up.  Looks like Okorafor is trying so hard to hit a spot on his drop that he's unable to play the rush move properly.  It's happening on the right side as well with Moore and Haeg when they are in there.  My optimism on the right side is Banner is so big and long that he can protect against the inside move so well and gaining depth is so easy that he won't need much help.

While keep these guys on the island so to speak. Get some TE or RB help chipping the pass rushers. 

Basically, looks to my eye like they are playing inside zone.  The hard part there, like I said, is inside zone often puts the OT's on islands.  The reason why you see Okorafor doing well when he meets the defender early is because he knows he took away an inside move and can make them go deep easier.  When he has to gain too much depth first, he flaps his arms to get there, so his hands aren't in position.

It looks to me like they want Okorafor taking a bigger first two kicks than he's capable of taking.  I feel that them getting off the ball and running it well is going to be what really helps Okorafor.  Running the ball and getting him downhill will get the defense playing on their heels some.  So when he needs to make a deep pass set, he can focus on getting depth, then get his hands into position and the rush won't be there yet because they slowed waiting for the run.

 

As for Green, I'll just restate what I said about him:

Rookie player who's had only 2 NCAA games at the C position to get used to it.  Like Okorafor he looks like a guy who's thinking through his sets rather than playing.

 

With guys like these two it comes down to this:

Peaks - Playing on instinct and not thinking.  This is when all the coaching plays off and comes together.

Valleys - Thinking through the reps and worried about hitting spots.  This is when the coach is kinda in their ear about something.

Solution is time (experience playing) and confidence through success and forgetting about the bad play or plays. 

1 hour ago, Dcash4 said:

And this is the big part for me why I would elect to continue to slow play 4th round pick DMJ. At this point, Chuks is what he is. He is either going to sink or swim from a development standpoint, but Dan still has a ton of road ahead of him. I would rather him focusing on his craft, even if just for a short term period, than playing live snaps where he is concentrating on correcting flaws, the study tape of pass rusher, and remember the plays all at the same time. 

This is Chuks first time at LT. He is adjusting, but I don't think we can't overlook that he has experience as the swing tackle and starting on the right side after Banner went down. It is not easy being amphibious as Mike Tyson calls it (ambidextrous). Chuks will adjust, but to your point, I don't necessarily see a great LT.  I think Big Al exceeded my expectations as well considering what he developed from.  

I don't want to stunt development at this point or not fix poor tendencies. Three weeks ago Moore was getting his butt kicked and has since progressed nicely. But I would like things to feel like they all go into Box A above rather than having him dipping into box B more and more. 

That is somewhat typical with rookies. He also has not played a down of regular season football. The intensity and everything gets ramped up come week one in Buffalo. That's why I say you can't get too hyped about success or down about setbacks. They are a part of the process. 

[MOSteelers56]

18 hours ago, 43M said:

While Harris is a better player, he cant drop deuces like Dookie Davenport.  

No closet is safe from Davenport

[Dcash4]

1 hour ago, Steeler Hitman said:

That is all technique and comes together with experience and gaining confidence.

TBF, if we are really worried about technique in year 4....we have bigger issues (probably just talent at that point). We could potentially point to coaching too, especially seeing as the guy there the last two years was canned this off-season. 

I'll buy early season reps and some of the experience...but we are not too far off from just saying "not, it's just the guy". 

1 hour ago, Steeler Hitman said:

He is going to have some problems adjusting. We should not see this in year three.

In regards to Green, technique isn't really my concern. I thought he looks like a guy natural to the position for the most part. But he is never going to be an anchor and he will struggle with bull rush/heavy handed defenders. His body isn't going to change that drastically from now to year 3. He is going to be an undersized less than 300lb guy.

Pouncey was a 5 time All-Pro like who continually struggled with that throughout his career. Hopefully he follows MP's path and excels elsehwere, but he is always going to have a problem at his size and length. 

[Steeler Hitman]

21 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

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TBF, if we are really worried about technique in year 4....we have bigger issues (probably just talent at that point).We could potentially point to coaching too, especially seeing as the guy there the last two years was canned this off-season. 

Typically, I would agree with you here (about technique), but changes to the OL scheme and coaching has brought about a bit of a halt in regards to development there. With regards to coaching, I am in 100% agreement with you. Losing Munchak definitely hurt and we saw just how much a great OL coach can help. The Browns OL improved leaps and bounds with Bill Callahan as the OL Coach and the same with Denver when Munchak went there.  Adrian Klemm seems to be a teacher, so I hope to see improvements over the next few years and development of young and up and coming OL's.

 

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I'll buy early season reps and some of the experience...but we are not too far off from just saying "not, it's just the guy". 

I am not quite there yet, but if this year goes down that path, I would have to agree completely.

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In regards to Green, technique isn't really my concern. I thought he looks like a guy natural to the position for the most part. But he is never going to be an anchor and he will struggle with bull rush/heavy handed defenders.

I see a lot of Pouncey comparisons with Green, but to me he is a bit more Dermontti Dawson than Pouncey. Pouncey probably had the best footwork of any of the Steelers all time great centers. Webby was pound for pound definitely the strongest, but Dirt Dawson had some of both at nearly 290. A different era but decent size for that time. Green is a strong guy that if he learns to use his leverage and get into defenders bodies, he can definitely still be a "people mover."  The long arm thing can be overexaggerated in my opinion at times. While it definitely helps at OT, Center is probably the best position for the squattier guy. Some would argue OG, but I think that for what it takes to play center, you can get away with the lack of size more there than say at RT. I wouldn't be so surprised if he did become a good anchor. And this is coming from a guy who definitely prefers the big McNasty, Slobahontisis on the OL. Quinn Meinerz was my guy all pre draft. I would have taken him over Green in round three.  If Landon Dickerson was still there, he would have been my guy in round two. I like the big bodies on the OL. But Green is a fighter. And a strong one at that. That may serve him well. 

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His body isn't going to change that drastically from now to year 3. He is going to be an undersized less than 300lb guy.

Yeah he looks kind of  on the smallish size weight wise, but he is listed as 6'4 315. That is an inch taller than my man crush Meinerz and only 5 pounds lighter. 😲😲 If that's true he will easily pack on another 10 pounds or so through the aging process. Strength + some added size could be a good thing. He is a muscular built guy more so than the naturally heavy guys.

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Pouncey was a 5 time All-Pro like who continually struggled with that throughout his career. Hopefully he follows MP's path and excels elsewhere, but he is always going to have a problem at his size and length. 

Their strengths and style of games are different. Pouncey relied on speed and quickness and I believe that Green will rely on both quickness, and his natural strength. I think he will succeed more in the run game by putting defenders on skate were as Pouncey had to get to the defenders first.  If they got to Pouncey's body, he was on skates backwards at times. Pouncey was no slouch, but this kid seems to have more of an outgoing mean streak/side. He has that natural mean chip on his shoulder from what I've seen thus far. He seems to have a tough OL's spirit. That edge and grit that has been missing seems to be coming back with Turner, Dotson, Banner and Green.