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2021 Defensive Thread


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3 hours ago, Old Guy said:

After week 1 there are two glaring needs on this team. Neither of which are likely to be fixed this year. 

1. interior defensive line talent.

2. It appears we are still in need of an NFL DC. 

Also, Kevin King is a liability. The Eric Stokes era needs to start now. 

Maybe on defense, but I think the offense showed some holes too... there is no way a team missing their top 2 starting CBs and DT and starting DT Ringo (whom couldn't make our 53 man roster) should be able to do that to an offensive roster with talent... 

Aso the Saints were missing their top two WRs as well.

I think it's going to be very interesting when the Packers prefer going base vs nickel, also when in nickel which player they have in the slot as it's basically saying whom do you want as your 5th DB CB Sullivan, CB Stokes and S Black

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39 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

So, this thread and my defensive bravado didn't age well at all.

Easy to pile on Barry, and it is warranted.  He was bad.  His players looked lost and confused in the scheme.

And yah, we are a "soft" defense.

If I'm going to burn it down, here is what I'd do.  Not this week, not next week, but soon.

  • Remove Barry, but in Gray.  It honestly can't get worse than Barry.
  • I don't know if he isn't a captain, but if Jaire isn't a captain, make him one.
  • At some point and time, you really need to consider getting Stokes on the field.  Not saying he needs to play for King, but that is the obvious choice.  Stokes needs to be on the field.
  • I'm not sure how to do it, but getting Savage in the slot and utilizing him like Woodson should happen.

I think we should give Barry more of a chance, yeah it was horrible, but let's see if he can correct, and both sides got dominated, it was the entire team not just one side.

I believe Alexander, Amos and Clark are the defensive captains and people were surprised Z Smith wasn't... but from what LaFleur said the votes were split more than you normally hear about... also Z was injured... and Preston or the ILBers could of slipped some votes off of him. (My biggest surprise was TE Lewis being captain and no OL were captains).

 

The problem with Savage in the slot is then you either have to go so single high Safety (which isn't currently in fad) or put S Black on the field. And for the Saints game, have absolutely no backup Safeties as S Scott was out with injury.

But as the 5th DB you got the choices of Sullivan (with Sullivan in the slot), Black (with Savage in the slot) or Stokes (with Alexander in the slot).

I agree with you, that Savage in the slot is really interesting... but if we're trying to get the best 11 on the field, I'm not sure Black is better than Sullivan, Stokes (or King for those that say Stokes should be starting over King). I think we're more likely to see Sullivan and Alexander in the slot.

 

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3 hours ago, Beast said:

Maybe on defense, but I think the offense showed some holes too... there is no way a team missing their top 2 starting CBs and DT and starting DT Ringo (whom couldn't make our 53 man roster) should be able to do that to an offensive roster with talent... 

Aso the Saints were missing their top two WRs as well.

I think it's going to be very interesting when the Packers prefer going base vs nickel, also when in nickel which player they have in the slot as it's basically saying whom do you want as your 5th DB CB Sullivan, CB Stokes and S Black

This is a defense thread. Why the offense wasn't mentioned in my post. 

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4 hours ago, vegas492 said:

So, this thread and my defensive bravado didn't age well at all.

Easy to pile on Barry, and it is warranted.  He was bad.  His players looked lost and confused in the scheme.

And yah, we are a "soft" defense.

If I'm going to burn it down, here is what I'd do.  Not this week, not next week, but soon.

  • Remove Barry, but in Gray.  It honestly can't get worse than Barry.
  • I don't know if he isn't a captain, but if Jaire isn't a captain, make him one.
  • At some point and time, you really need to consider getting Stokes on the field.  Not saying he needs to play for King, but that is the obvious choice.  Stokes needs to be on the field.
  • I'm not sure how to do it, but getting Savage in the slot and utilizing him like Woodson should happen.

I see him more in the Nick Collins mold than a Charles Woodson. There just aren't that many guys like Woodson who can do it all. 

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10 minutes ago, Old Guy said:

I see him more in the Nick Collins mold than a Charles Woodson. There just aren't that many guys like Woodson who can do it all. 

True.  There aren't many Charles Woodson type guys out there.

I think Savage has the skills to play that slot, though.  I'm not saying he will be Charles Woodson, just that I'd like to see him have the opportunity to impact the game from that position like Woodson did.

Also?  Not opposed to putting Jaire in there, but he's smaller, and if you do that, you have to replace a boundary corner.

I feel it is easier to replace your deep safety than it is your boundary corner.  

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1 hour ago, vegas492 said:

True.  There aren't many Charles Woodson type guys out there.

I think Savage has the skills to play that slot, though.  I'm not saying he will be Charles Woodson, just that I'd like to see him have the opportunity to impact the game from that position like Woodson did.

Also?  Not opposed to putting Jaire in there, but he's smaller, and if you do that, you have to replace a boundary corner.

I feel it is easier to replace your deep safety than it is your boundary corner.  

Especially when we already have one, King, who needs to be replaced. 

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4 hours ago, vegas492 said:

True.  There aren't many Charles Woodson type guys out there.

I think Savage has the skills to play that slot, though.  I'm not saying he will be Charles Woodson, just that I'd like to see him have the opportunity to impact the game from that position like Woodson did.

Also?  Not opposed to putting Jaire in there, but he's smaller, and if you do that, you have to replace a boundary corner.

I feel it is easier to replace your deep safety than it is your boundary corner.  

Our Defensive Coordinator is a 2 deep man until he dies, the conversation needs to be how we fix the defense around that unfortunate reality. 

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51 minutes ago, ifeelasleep said:

just once id like to see a historically dominant defense in green bay, i honestly couldnt give a hoot about offense anymore, ive seen enough offense i want a defense to be feared.

We are at least one beast DT and another CB away. Besides Clark we have nothing at DT so teams will run on us. Kevin King is a liability. Barry likes to sit back with two safeties back. They might as well be sitting in row 7 of the stands because teams are going to run it until we stop it. 

Shanahan may not throw the ball once in two weeks.

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3 hours ago, Old Guy said:

We are at least one beast DT and another CB away. Besides Clark we have nothing at DT so teams will run on us. Kevin King is a liability. Barry likes to sit back with two safeties back. They might as well be sitting in row 7 of the stands because teams are going to run it until we stop it. 

Shanahan may not throw the ball once in two weeks.

You're on the right track but a bit off:

We're 3 IDL away though Slaton could emerge and Keke could be a good rotational piece so that might be 2 rather than 3. We need 2 CB's; one to replace King and one to replace Sullivan. We also need a Luke Kuechly type at ILB and 2 EDGE guys when either Smith leave.

Our problem has been the IDL since Kenny was drafted and he's the only one that seems to be able to find any sustained success and I don't trust Garvin or Rivers at EDGE.

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I NEED to see more Slaton, Stokes and SJC on the field this Monday. There's no reason they shouldn't be getting plenty of looks over guys like Lowry/Lanny King and Sullivan. SJC over Sullivan is the only one I'm not certain about who's better in their positions.

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9 minutes ago, ReadyToThump said:

I NEED to see more Slaton, Stokes and SJC on the field this Monday. There's no reason they shouldn't be getting plenty of looks over guys like Lowry/Lanny King and Sullivan. SJC over Sullivan is the only one I'm not certain about who's better in their positions.

I'm convinced SJC was drafted simply to be a specific type of role player and I'm pulling for him because he's a high effort guy who showed up during preseason. That said, we're drafting another CB again next year and the only question is when. I too want to see more Slaton and we really don't need to "see" more of Stokes simply because we already know he's better than King. Unless King balls out from now until the end of the year, we can say that bringing him back was more of an insurance thing given his experience; suffice it to say that when he's good he's reliable and when he's off....well we all know the result...

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On 9/4/2021 at 10:43 AM, Shanedorf said:

From Warren Sharp on the Fangio/Staley defenses

https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/analysis/two-high-shell-staley-fangio-nfl-defense-2021/

What NFL Defenses Need To Learn From Brandon Staley & Vic Fangio As Two-High Looks Inevitably Rise

The Fangio/Staley system can be slightly more player agnostic (though neither of them lacked talent during the 2020 season) and transferable, but there are so many specifics in play for the defense to work as intended. Tracking the spread of a Fangio scheme will be interesting across the 2021 season because in 2020 it was clear Staley and Fangio were doing something completely different compared to the rest of the league. The below table shows how often a defense lined up in a two-high shell before the snap.

Pre-Snap-2-High-Shell-2020-1.png

The Rams and Broncos were clearly on their own with a two-high shell on over 75% of defensive snaps, according to Sports Info Solutions
No other team was over 60% and only three others eclipsed 50%.

But what makes the defense work is not just that the two-high shell turns into Cover 2 or Quarters coverage with two deep safeties playing the pass at a high rate. Both Staley and Fangio use those pre-snap shells to disguise the coverage and still often rotate to a single-high coverage. Below is a chart of how often teams used a pre-snap two-high shell (the same rate as the one above) plotted with how often those teams actually used MOFO (middle of the field open) coverage.

Pre-Snap-2-High-Shell-vs.-MOFO-Coverage-

More in the article...

Showing a 2 high defense pre-snap really shouldn't be an issue - its what the 2 best defenses in the league do with great success.
What happens is next is worthy of discussion- but being a predominantly 2-high defense isn't a problem per this article from Sharp Football.

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