2022 CFB Talk/Draft Prospects

[ThatJaxxenGuy]

4 hours ago, Ray Reed said:

Yeah but that's...3 games total. 2 of which we lost.

Again, I don't think he's a bad player, but I just think this fanbase is really reaching to justify Brown being better than what he's produced on the field up to this point.

He's a C/B (at best) range draft pick at this point.

And there have absolutely been clutch situations where he's dropped the ball. Look at literally the last game we watched as fans. He dropped the game winning TD against the Steelers this past year in the 4th quarter and then he dropped a ball during the potential game winning drive with time running out on a very well thrown ball to the sideline - and that's a play that those WRs taken behind him absolutely have made up to this point in their careers.

And Hollywood's drops against the Lions were absolutely not "rack up stats" situations, lol, he was dropping multiple TDs in a very close game that we needed a 66 yard FG to win at the end.

Sorry, just because Hollywood has had 3 good playoff performances doesn't mean he's some clutch big moment performer who only drops passes that don't mean anything and therefore a B or better draft pick.

That’s your opinion, I’m willing to call him a clutch performer. He took over with Lamar and Mandrews against the Colts, and was trying to will us to victory in the Bills playoff game but Huntley was unable to hit him deep. As a rookie against the Titans in the playoffs he was our best player. He’s absolutely a better pick than Patrick Queen has been, and he without the benefit of hindsight, at the time he absolutely had more college dominance than Metcalf and AJ Brown. One game where he got over excited against the lions doesn’t define his career, neither does a single drop against the Steelers (ask Torrey Smith), and to me he showed that against the Broncos the next week where he made one of the best plays of our season. 

I don’t understand what’s up with football fans trying to pass off their opinion as unequivocal fact but it gets really old. This kind of entitlement is why I refrain from posting in the Ravens forum. I find the most vocal portion of our fans are unbearable.

 

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by ThatJaxxenGuy

[bmorecareful]

I ain’t gonna lie and I know we don’t need him… But… if we took Jameson Williams at 14 I wouldn’t be mad about it lol… 

[RavensfanRD]

13 hours ago, Ray Reed said:

Come on now. He's a speed receiver who was drafted to provide explosive plays for the offense and the reality is that he's been pretty pedestrian at producing explosive plays since he's been drafted...on top of the fact that he has to be one of the worst YAC receivers in the league and his hands are shaky at times. When you add in the fact he was the first WR taken and the 4-5 guys taken after have outproduced him there is no universe where he deserves a B+ or better.

I wanted him to be awesome so bad when we picked him because like a lot of us I want us to have that legit #1 guy for once and I'm also partial to Oklahoma and loved him in college...but the reality is that he's just been "fine". And for the first WR taken that's just not good enough when you look around the league at what other young receivers are doing consistently in this day and age.

Fair enough. We'll meet in the middle ground of a B then. I still think Hollywood can be that #1 for us. We saw a glimpse into that realm first half of the season before it all went to hell. But it'll be tough no doubt with Bateman breathing down his neck, for sure.

2 hours ago, bmorecareful said:

I ain’t gonna lie and I know we don’t need him… But… if we took Jameson Williams at 14 I wouldn’t be mad about it lol… 

I'm going to 1 Winning Drive and throwing hands if EDC went this route with the urgent needs we have on the offensive AND defensive lines.

[Ray Reed]

15 hours ago, ThatJaxxenGuy said:

That’s your opinion, I’m willing to call him a clutch performer. He took over with Lamar and Mandrews against the Colts, and was trying to will us to victory in the Bills playoff game but Huntley was unable to hit him deep. As a rookie against the Titans in the playoffs he was our best player. He’s absolutely a better pick than Patrick Queen has been, and he without the benefit of hindsight, at the time he absolutely had more college dominance than Metcalf and AJ Brown. One game where he got over excited against the lions doesn’t define his career, neither does a single drop against the Steelers (ask Torrey Smith), and to me he showed that against the Broncos the next week where he made one of the best plays of our season. 

I don’t understand what’s up with football fans trying to pass off their opinion as unequivocal fact but it gets really old. This kind of entitlement is why I refrain from posting in the Ravens forum. I find the most vocal portion of our fans are unbearable.

 

 

Lol alright man. If you want me to preface every single opinion I have with "NOW THIS IS JUST MY OPINION BUT" then fine, but that's kind of inherent in the conversation when you're talking about things like grading a draft pick.

If you're talking about saying things like "he had a dropped TD against the Steelers and in the same game a drop on the potential game winning drive that was a perfect throw" or "he dropped those TDs against the Lions in a close game so it absolutely wasn't for garbage time stats"...well...those are unequivocal facts lol. Don't know what else to tell you about that other than you need to live in the reality of the situation.

And no, one game doesn't define his career. Nor two. But the 40+ games he has played do, and through 40+ games he's produced like Torrey Smith did his first 40+ games. Actually he's produced less. So if you wanna call Torrey Smith drafted at pick 25 a B+ or A pick go ahead but don't get sanctimonious and act like I'm a vocally unbearable fan because I'm not willing to agree with that.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Ray Reed

[DreamKid]

As we move into the more Raven relevant days of the combine does anyone have certain prospects you feel 'need' good numbers to stay on your personal board?

[bmorecareful]

10 hours ago, RavensfanRD said:

Fair enough. We'll meet in the middle ground of a B then. I still think Hollywood can be that #1 for us. We saw a glimpse into that realm first half of the season before it all went to hell. But it'll be tough no doubt with Bateman breathing down his neck, for sure.

I'm going to 1 Winning Drive and throwing hands if EDC went this route with the urgent needs we have on the offensive AND defensive lines.

Aye the bengals ignored oline and got all the way to the super bowl lol… yeah they loss but Aye they made a nice run… not to mention we got. 2nd 2 3rds and 5 4ths… I want bpa at 14 not to say that’s Williams but I don’t want to reach for need either 

[RavensfanRD]

1 hour ago, bmorecareful said:

Aye the bengals ignored oline and got all the way to the super bowl lol… yeah they loss but Aye they made a nice run… not to mention we got. 2nd 2 3rds and 5 4ths… I want bpa at 14 not to say that’s Williams but I don’t want to reach for need either 

That Bengals SB run is fools gold. Sure, it was a feel good story, but that isn't likely to continue happening. And as I pointed out somewhere through the threads, this was one of the weakest playoff brackets of all-time.

And I'd rather them just trade back if that's the case then. Don't just draft a WR because that's the best available. I'm sure there will be a few people wanting to move up since they know that isn't a need for the Ravens at the moment.

[diamondbull424]

On 3/2/2022 at 2:37 AM, drd23 said:

There's no way that Hollywood is an A as a draft grade 😂

He said B to A, which should mean that he believes he fits in between that range.

So: B-, B, B+
At least that’s my interpretation of @DreamKidpost.
 

On 2/27/2022 at 10:44 AM, Ray Reed said:

^ In that vain, IMO...

- Marquise Brown C

- Jaylon Ferguson F

- Miles Boykin D

- Patrick Queen C+

- JK Dobbins A-

- Justin Madubuike B

- Devin Duvernay B-

- Malik Harrison D+

- Rashod Bateman (inc)

- Odafe Oweh (inc)

- Ben Cleveland (inc)

 

Eric needs to hit on this draft. I’m a Ravens fan who likes DeCosta and typically finds the DeCosta detractors pretty insensible but typing it out like that I can’t lie...hasn’t been the best few drafts for him these last few years. Obviously plenty of time for some of those players to improve their grade though. But as it stands now...not fantastic.

I disagree with Hollywood’s breakdown. I get that EDC had his pick of the litter and I do believe the pick should be docked considering what came after. However I think that’s a B-, you’ve got to consider the playoff impact into the equation with Hollywood. You can make the case that the last few seasons he’s been arguably our most consistent/best playoff performer.

Throw in the fact that he’s still been our best WR option and while I could see a C+ at worst and maybe a B at best, I think a C is definitely too low.

Beyond that I disagree with Duvernay’s rating. He’s a PB specialist. Sure he’s not an elite WR talent, but I think for where he was drafted, that’s fantastic value and certainly worthy of a B+, the field position he creates is certainly worthy of such value IMO.

Edited March 5, 2022 by diamondbull424

[Ray Reed]

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

He said B to A, which should mean that he believes he fits in between that range.

So: B-, B, B+
At least that’s my interpretation of @DreamKidpost.
 

I disagree with Hollywood’s breakdown. I get that EDC had his pick of the litter and I do believe the pick should be docked considering what came after. However I think that’s a B-, you’ve got to consider the playoff impact into the equation with Hollywood. You can make the case that the last few seasons he’s been arguably our most consistent/best playoff performer.

Throw in the fact that he’s still been our best WR option and while I could see a C+ at worst and maybe a B at best, I think a C is definitely too low.

Beyond that I disagree with Duvernay’s rating. He’s a PB specialist. Sure he’s not an elite WR talent, but I think for where he was drafted, that’s fantastic value and certainly worthy of a B+, the field position he creates is certainly worthy of such value IMO.

C is still a decent-solid pick in my book. It’s average by definition. I think Hollywood has absolutely been an average WR all things considered but I wouldn’t fight you on a C+. Yeah he’s been our best WR option but he’s competed with guys like Miles Boykin and Seth Roberts for that distinction. And obviously if you change that phrasing to best “receiving option” it’s an absolute blowout for Andrews.

Like I said, Hollywood is producing just slightly below where Torrey Smith was his first 3 years in the league. I just don’t think you can give more than a B- at best for that when he was the first WR taken. The context of the draft absolutely matters when grading the picks.

I could get behind a B+ for Duvernay but that’s not really a huge difference from the B- I initially gave him. Won’t get an argument out of me from that.

[wackywabbit]

I was probably higher than anyone here on Hollywood pre-draft, and I'd go C+ for him. He definitely brings significant value to the offense, but if you threw a dart at the top WR draft prospect list and hit Hollywood, that's a meh result.

[DreamKid]

I really don't get the comparison to other prospects as it relates to our grading of the Marquise Brown pick. 

The only WR whose stock was in Hollywood's range that year was N'Keal Harry.... A massive bust. That was the test for EDC, and he passed it with flying colors. Plenty of Raven fans gave him sh*t for passing on Harry too. No one wanted an underneath receiver like Deebo, we needed a field stretcher to open things up for the rest of our components on offense- which is exactly what Marquise has done. DK Metcalf had injury flags that almost saw him drafted in the 3rd Round. McLaurin and AJ Brown are fine players, but again they didn't have stock in Hollywood's range. The only reason we were able to pick Marquise was because of the lisfranc issue. If not he goes much higher like a Ruggs or Ross. 

No GM is so talented that he can identify the best player in each class or position group, and you don't want a GM that is going to start playing against the board trying to secure 'his guy'. That's a recipe for disaster, see Gruden and Mayock's tenure in OAK/LV. The Ravens not reaching for AJ Brown over Marquise doesn't bother me in the slightest, what does bother me is a situation like we had with Michael Onwenu. There you have a kid at a school we have inside connections to, and not only does he end up being a good player but he vastly outperforms the other Michigan Guard we picked 40 spots above him(Ben Bredeson). That can't happen, and is a situation where EDC and our scouting class deserves criticism. 

Let's also not act like each WR's situation is the same. To put up any numbers Marquise has had to overcome our history of poor WR development, OL, Roman, a 3K rush game, and Lamar's accuracy issues deep and outside the numbers. If you think any of his peers from that class are going to drop into our offense and put him to shame I can't agree. 

Sure it's disappointing that he's not Justin Jefferson or Ja'Marr Chase, but that's not how you grade a pick. Since entering the league Hollywood is Top 5 in TDs on vertical routes per NGS, he's legit won us games and had clutch performances in and out of the playoffs, opens up our offense for our other weapons and has a great rapport with Lamar... Again, I wish he caught every ball that came his way too. A better attitude would be awesome as well. And who wouldn't want a receiver that could put up 1,300-1,500 yards regardless of his QBs' accuracy, OL, OC, etc. Unfortunately that's not realistic expectations to have though.

Marquise is one of the top U25 weapons in the league and of incredible value to this offense. He's one of the best players on this team. I don't see how he can be considered an 'average/C' draft pick on any level. His impact for the club isn't average, his league value certainly isn't average- we could get a 1st+ for him right now. As EDC's first ever pick, I think he was a great one and I hope get him extended ASAP. He, Bateman, and Andrews should form a lethal trio that will grow together with Lamar for years to come.

6 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

He said B to A, which should mean that he believes he fits in between that range.

So: B-, B, B+
At least that’s my interpretation of @DreamKidpost.
 

Yea @drd23, if "Marquise Brown should be higher in the B to A territory" warrants a 😂 emoji. Please share your personal assessment Draft Grade Hitler lol.  

IMO, as far as our 1st Round Picks go- this kind of grading looks about right:

S- Ogden, Lewis, Reed

A- Suggs, Ngata, Humphrey, Stanley

B- Heap, Grubbs

C- Oher

D- Hurst, Clayton

F- Elam, Perriman, Boller

^^^Does anyone feel different?

 

I think Michael Oher is a really perfect C Grade 1st Round pick. Positional value(RT) is decent, talent is solid, and he brought moderate overall value to the club. 

If this tier list is acceptable to those who feel Marquise is a C or lower grade pick, do you stick with that assessment? Do you really feel Hollywood is closer to Oher than Heap with the value he brings to the club? (BTW It's fine if you do lol, IDK why arguments seem to be starting over a pretty benign topic. It's just a fun discussion.).

Actually pretty interested to see some other Ravens' 1st and even 2nd/3rd Round Pick tier lists from you guys. @Ray Reed After two consecutive good years, does Bowser finally break out of 2nd Round Pick F tier for you? 😅

 

[drd23]

6 hours ago, wackywabbit said:

I was probably higher than anyone here on Hollywood pre-draft, and I'd go C+ for him. He definitely brings significant value to the offense, but if you threw a dart at the top WR draft prospect list and hit Hollywood, that's a meh result.

This is where I am at (although I've never been fond of Hollywood).  As a draft pick, what we have got out of Hollywood is about the minimum you'd want out of a 1st round WR. To me, a FRP would need to be a perennial Pro-Bowler to given an A.  If he was (hypothetically) picked in the 3rd round, my grade of the draft pick would be higher

3 hours ago, DreamKid said:

The only WR whose stock was in Hollywood's range that year was N'Keal Harry.... A massive bust. That was the test for EDC, and he passed it with flying colors.

That implies that a WR had to be picked, and that teams all have the same valuations on players (which we know isn't true)

[drd23]

 

[DreamKid]

31 minutes ago, drd23 said:

That implies that a WR had to be picked, and that teams all have the same valuations on players (which we know isn't true)

No position has to be picked, but that was certainly our target position and the biggest need at the time. Avoiding a clear bust like N'Keal who many in the tape and analytics community were screaming "WR1" about is significant to me. Since a large aspect of this discussion was centered around EDC's performance so far. 

43 minutes ago, drd23 said:

This is where I am at (although I've never been fond of Hollywood).  As a draft pick, what we have got out of Hollywood is about the minimum you'd want out of a 1st round WR. To me, a FRP would need to be a perennial Pro-Bowler to given an A.  If he was (hypothetically) picked in the 3rd round, my grade of the draft pick would be higher

IDK I think that methodology is flawed and ultimately misleads as to what level of talent was acquired. If Marquise was in KC, TB, GB or even ARI and dropping monster numbers he wouldn't magically be a better player- he'd just be a more productive one. 

When our OL and running game is hopefully fixed next season, we'll be back around or up over 3K rushing yards per year. Lamar's favorite target is Mark Andrews and he excels at getting the ball to our TEs in the MOF. That doesn't leave endless statistical opportunity for Rashod Bateman or Marquise Brown. If Bateman converts almost all of his opportunity into production and fulfills his role within our offense helping us put together a great season... but only ends up with something like 800 yards. Does that mean he's also just a C Grade Draft Pick? Despite adding more efficency, impact, and value to our offense? CJ Mosely had all kinds of numbers and plenty of All-Pro/Pro Bowl nods, yet he was often times the least valuable player on our defense. Is he an A draft pick?...... See what I mean. 

[Ray Reed]

@DreamKid

There are a few things I just fundamentally disagree with you on when it comes to this point. And that’s ok, that’s the beauty of sports. I obviously respect your football opinion, and with these things most of the time no one is “right” or “wrong”, but I strongly disagree with the assertions that

•Hollywood Brown would garner a 1st round pick + in a trade. Orlando was a superior player at his position and in the same situation (coming up on his last year of his deal) garnered a 2nd (in value). I think fans overestimate sometimes what players will return in a trade because every now and then the Bill o Brien’s of the world give up 2 firsts for a guy like Laremy Tunsil. There’s no way an NFL team out there is giving up a first round pick for Hollywood Brown with the state of college receivers every year in the draft these days. There are going to be WRs taken in the first this year that will undoubtedly produce more than Hollywood.

•He’s one of the best young weapons in the league. If you’re not even in the top 3 WR of your specific draft class you just can’t be given that title. There are so many young weapons around this league that I’d be shocked if Brown cracked most teams’ top 15.

•Todd Heap is a B draft pick. He’s absolutely an A in my book...he was a multi time pro bowl TE who was picked at #32

To me (talking about our previous first round draft picks) Hollywood is kind of uniquely in the C range pretty much by himself (maybe Oher as well like you said). He’s obviously not in the A stratosphere of Ray, Ogden, Reed, Ngata, Heap, Jamal, McAlister etc. But i wouldn’t put him in the Bs either with guys like Jimmy Smith, Duane Starks, or Ben Grubbs. Yet he’s not there in the Ds and Fs and complete whiffs we’ve had like Elam, Perriman, etc. I see him very comfortably in between those 2 groups and as I type that out it makes me even more confident in calling him a C range draft pick. 

 

 

PS - yes, I have moved up Bowser. To a B 😂

Edited March 6, 2022 by Ray Reed