Injury Tracker

[G]

31 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

I could easily use to justify the rest and make enough room for Mack.

Carr, Mack, Cooper I thought were all going to be our foundation in Vegas...Nope lol 

[Jeremy408]

1 hour ago, drfrey13 said:

My point about going up against the number 1 CBs is not always did they shut him down.  Sometimes the QB shuts down the WR by staying away from the CB on purpose.  WHy do you think Aso was so good.  Nobody threw to his side because the other DBs where getting smoked every week.  Aso had one year where QBs threw to his assignment under ten times the entire year.  Was he that good or were the other DBs that bad?  Who knows because the other teams did not have to try it out. 

I am not going to argue how good those players are relative to Cooper because I would probably take most of them over him so far but tell which of those guys does not deserve to get $20 million a year if they were getting a new contract this year?  Every single one of those players has multiple games every year that defenses take them away.  The games you say the CBs are taking Cooper away 1v1 go back and re-watch the games.  Carr use to talk about how teams constantly role coverage over to Cooper's side to help out.  

3 years on the team.  1st one they made the playoff.  second one they had the 6th best offense in the league.  Third year your starting QB breaks his leg and you are still a 1,000 yard WR.  You are the missing piece until another piece goes missing.

Yes and that is why I said sitting there at 10.  I could have said five and it is still a no brainer.  Young going at 5 is the equivalent to Lamb going 17.

What I said is we were better off paying Cooper than what we got in return.  It can be two separate issues but it does not change the truth of the statement.

You do realize that cap space roles over so if we gave him $20 million a year just like Dallas he would have cost us $38 million for the past 3.5 years.  You forget he was still on his rookie deal and you would subtract the Abram contract.  He would have amounted to an extra $98 million over 6.5 years.  So $15 million a year and I will not include what we might have done differently at WR like not take Ruggs at 12 which cost us a potential impact player and another $7 million so far and another $10 million the next 2 years.  Tyrell and Joyner cost use $43 million.  I doubt we go looking for John Brown either but that only cost us $1.75 million.  So keeping Cooper leads to most of those moves and you can not deny he is a better player than Ruggs or Tyrell.  So we end up with a better player and have to not sign a player we had no idea how to use (addition by subtraction and you can not say hindsight because myself and a lot of others called Joyner busting when they said he would not play safety) and it would cost us $36 million extra (Cooper is signed 1 year longer than Ruggs) over 6.5 years.  I did not count the Trent Brown contract because I was hyped we signed him when we did until I found out he was going to be a RT and how much he was getting but there plenty of other contracts I could easily use to justify the rest and make enough room for Mack.

The reality is if you were to turn on Cooper highlights right now you wouldn't find notable corners that he's beating. He was fine number two corners, safeties linebackers and people that you don't know their names. By comparison if I show you a highlight tape of Mike Evans or Tyreek Hill you'll see that they beats notable corners.

We are going to pay that guy 20 million. he's never been top-five and receiving(and he gets paid more than the guy who's lead the NFL in receiving last year). That is what you call a bad contract. If we end up doing that we don't get an opportunity to sign players(why do they turn out to be good or bad is no consequence)

My overall point is he's not the type of guy that you pay that kind of money. You pay somebody who truly can't be stopped by one player with that kind of money. Waller for example is the perfect example of someone who requires to be double teamed at all times. Even rugs who is obviously not the receiver that Amari Cooper is in terms of route running has an element to his game that requires a safety over the top regardless of the corner is Jalen Ramsey Marlon Humphrey or anyone. You can't just erase rugs with one person. Now I'm not saying you give him 20 million either. I'm just saying there are clear reasons why you don't give someone my Cooper 20 million. 

And as far as what else we can do a lot of what else we could say what if we ended up getting the kind of players that we got this off-season that first off-season when we originally traded Cooper then we could say that nobody would be complaining nobody would care everybody will be saying we're geniuses. So you have to look at it as was the individual player worth the money he got yes or no

Edited September 24, 2021 by Jeremy408

[drfrey13]

2 hours ago, Jeremy408 said:

The reality is if you were to turn on Cooper highlights right now you wouldn't find notable corners that he's beating. He was fine number two corners, safeties linebackers and people that you don't know their names. By comparison if I show you a highlight tape of Mike Evans or Tyreek Hill you'll see that they beats notable corners.

We are going to pay that guy 20 million. he's never been top-five and receiving(and he gets paid more than the guy who's lead the NFL in receiving last year). That is what you call a bad contract. If we end up doing that we don't get an opportunity to sign players(why do they turn out to be good or bad is no consequence)

My overall point is he's not the type of guy that you pay that kind of money. You pay somebody who truly can't be stopped by one player with that kind of money. Waller for example is the perfect example of someone who requires to be double teamed at all times. Even rugs who is obviously not the receiver that Amari Cooper is in terms of route running has an element to his game that requires a safety over the top regardless of the corner is Jalen Ramsey Marlon Humphrey or anyone. You can't just erase rugs with one person. Now I'm not saying you give him 20 million either. I'm just saying there are clear reasons why you don't give someone my Cooper 20 million. 

And as far as what else we can do a lot of what else we could say what if we ended up getting the kind of players that we got this off-season that first off-season when we originally traded Cooper then we could say that nobody would be complaining nobody would care everybody will be saying we're geniuses. So you have to look at it as was the individual player worth the money he got yes or no

First are we really going to make decision based on highlight tapes?  Second one is the Art of the release and route running.  You should check it out if you have not seen it.

Like I said before if you have a better match up some where else you try to go there.  Case in point in 2019 the Cowboys play the Rams and Cooper gets 2 targets with 1 catch for 19 yards but the Cowboys win 44-21.  Next year they play again and the Rams are shutting down everything and leaving Ramsey 1v1 on Cooper.  Cooper has 14 targets 10 receptions for 81 yards.  Not the best game but I would take that average over a season for 1296 yards.

Once again I am not saying we should have signed him for $20 million no matter what.  What I did was breakdown how we have wasted money since getting rid of him and that he was cheaper than $20 million a year because even if you just apply TWs contract Cooper averages $14.3 million per year.  

You think it is wise to not have coverage over the top on Cooper like Ruggs.  The 40 distance between their times is .72 yards.  Teams have always tried to help out on Cooper's side.  You almost never see him going 1v1 with the safety sitting in the middle of the field.  Cooper has better strength, better game speed, and wiggle.  Let me know when Ruggs breaks a tackle or even makes a guy miss.  I could be completely wrong here but I thought Detriot did use Slay 1v1 on Waller and had 2 catches.  Not 100% sure on this one though.

And for the last point the answer is we did not so it does not matter.  I am not saying the best use of the $20 million was signing Cooper but what I am saying is that it is better than what we got.  If Gruden could have pulled his head out of his @$$ in 2018 we would be in a much better position but he choose to stick with Guenther that wasted most of our draft and financial capital.

[Darbsk]

13 hours ago, Jeremy408 said:

 

Oh I've heard this argument before(and the Kahlil Mack version also) but here's the thing I think people misunderstand: I think people only look at what we got that year versus versus it actually being 20 million a year.

For example that year 20 million was essentially Tyrell Williams 11 mil and Lamarcus Joyner.8 Mil

But this year 20 million is casey heyward(2.5mil) darius philon($990,000)  kj wright(3.2 mil) and yannick Ngokwe(13 mil)

So you have to remember 20 million is annually reoccurring until the player is no longer under contract. So who we get one year instead doesn't justify overpaying a player. 

 

But in terms of Cooper getting shut down one V1 which year are you referring to?

You're not wrong with this premise, however, it is very subjective. If you're in favour of the trade you can simply pick 3 or 4 guys that add up to 20mil and say 'look you wouldn't have these guys' or if you're against the trade you can just pick a few guys who didn't work out each year and say 'look we wasted the cap on these guys'.

What I will say is that if we had Mack we probably don't draft Ferrell but we may still draft Crosby and we likely don't sign Ngakoue so Philon, Hayward and Wright are still feasible and realistic with our new DC. Maybe Coopers future money would have just gone to Mack?

On the adjacent point about Cooper I think the trade was the right decision. He just didn't fit here, something was awry. What he has produced since he may or may not have gotten here but he went to a favourable situation for him. It worked out for both teams I think if Abram can continue on the upward trend and that 20mil if course can be said to have paid for the guys listed above also....... Or Trent Brown.......

[big_palooka]

2 hours ago, Darbsk said:

You're not wrong with this premise, however, it is very subjective. If you're in favour of the trade you can simply pick 3 or 4 guys that add up to 20mil and say 'look you wouldn't have these guys' or if you're against the trade you can just pick a few guys who didn't work out each year and say 'look we wasted the cap on these guys'.

What I will say is that if we had Mack we probably don't draft Ferrell but we may still draft Crosby and we likely don't sign Ngakoue so Philon, Hayward and Wright are still feasible and realistic with our new DC. Maybe Coopers future money would have just gone to Mack?

On the adjacent point about Cooper I think the trade was the right decision. He just didn't fit here, something was awry. What he has produced since he may or may not have gotten here but he went to a favourable situation for him. It worked out for both teams I think if Abram can continue on the upward trend and that 20mil if course can be said to have paid for the guys listed above also....... Or Trent Brown.......

The trades were not bad. It was the terrible free agent signings and draft picks that watered it down. In the hands of a capable front office, they could have built something off that trade. Gruden wasted the assets in that trade.

[SBXISBXVSBXVIII]

9 hours ago, G said:

Carr, Mack, Cooper I thought were all going to be our foundation in Vegas...Nope lol 

Should have been. What an effed up organization.

[NYRaider]

2 hours ago, big_palooka said:

The trades were not bad. It was the terrible free agent signings and draft picks that watered it down. In the hands of a capable front office, they could have built something off that trade. Gruden wasted the assets in that trade.

Obviously hindsight is 20-20 but if we would've used those 5 picks differently we could've had Devin White, Montez Sweat, AJ Terrell, and Justin Jefferson. 

[Geezy]

We’re better and younger now, fight me 

[Jeremy408]

6 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

First are we really going to make decision based on highlight tapes?  Second one is the Art of the release and route running.  You should check it out if you have not seen it.

Like I said before if you have a better match up some where else you try to go there.  Case in point in 2019 the Cowboys play the Rams and Cooper gets 2 targets with 1 catch for 19 yards but the Cowboys win 44-21.  Next year they play again and the Rams are shutting down everything and leaving Ramsey 1v1 on Cooper.  Cooper has 14 targets 10 receptions for 81 yards.  Not the best game but I would take that average over a season for 1296 yards.

Once again I am not saying we should have signed him for $20 million no matter what.  What I did was breakdown how we have wasted money since getting rid of him and that he was cheaper than $20 million a year because even if you just apply TWs contract Cooper averages $14.3 million per year.  

You think it is wise to not have coverage over the top on Cooper like Ruggs.  The 40 distance between their times is .72 yards.  Teams have always tried to help out on Cooper's side.  You almost never see him going 1v1 with the safety sitting in the middle of the field.  Cooper has better strength, better game speed, and wiggle.  Let me know when Ruggs breaks a tackle or even makes a guy miss.  I could be completely wrong here but I thought Detriot did use Slay 1v1 on Waller and had 2 catches.  Not 100% sure on this one though.

And for the last point the answer is we did not so it does not matter.  I am not saying the best use of the $20 million was signing Cooper but what I am saying is that it is better than what we got.  If Gruden could have pulled his head out of his @$$ in 2018 we would be in a much better position but he choose to stick with Guenther that wasted most of our draft and financial capital.

I understand the concept of releases but keep in mind the best release in the game is not Amari Cooper; it’s Devante Adams who gets paid significantly less. 

in the second Rams game when he said he had 10 targets for however many yards show me which ones were on Jalen Ramsey.

I also understand the concept of mismatching don’t get me wrong. But some teams have traveler players they can go with you wherever you go and you can be shut down that way. That’s why Cooper goes missing sometimes actually is because of that. Or you play team that has multiple #1 corners like the Broncos or the Jaguars used to. By contrast when you look at a player like Waller if you remember the ravens game they try to double-team him and there was a touchdown he scored where he beat the double team. What I’m saying is that’s the type of player that you. You’re not just gonna erase waller without suffering real consequences(which the Steelers learned this year And the Chiefs learned last year)

Darius slay has never shut down Darren Waller

and no teams do not feel the need to put a safety over the top against Cooper like they would ruggs. and if you think 4.27 and 4.42 isn’t much of a difference you’ve never ran track lol. We found out last week that sometimes he can out run the safety and track Level. And also ruggs broke a tackle last week for the record. see…

But also when you’re faster than everyone on the field you don’t need to break a lot of tackle things you’ve people you just need to get open and out run them. and then remember we’re not comparing Cooper to Ruggs We are comparing him to Waller who is the number one receiver on the team

And then for the last paragraph of the issue with what you’re saying is you’re saying that you’re not saying that the results prove that we should have kept him but then you use them as an example for what we could’ve used to pay Cooper. That’s the same thing lol.

[NYRaider]

7 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

The 40 distance between their times is .72 yards.  Teams have always tried to help out on Cooper's side.  You almost never see him going 1v1 with the safety sitting in the middle of the field.  Cooper has better strength, better game speed, and wiggle.  Let me know when Ruggs breaks a tackle or even makes a guy miss.

That's a massive gap in terms of speed, Ruggs is arguably the fastest player in the NFL. And Carr has had his most productive seasons after we traded Cooper. Dallas gave up a 1st round pick and paid him, has that helped them win more games?

[Jeremy408]

5 hours ago, Darbsk said:

You're not wrong with this premise, however, it is very subjective. If you're in favour of the trade you can simply pick 3 or 4 guys that add up to 20mil and say 'look you wouldn't have these guys' or if you're against the trade you can just pick a few guys who didn't work out each year and say 'look we wasted the cap on these guys'.

What I will say is that if we had Mack we probably don't draft Ferrell but we may still draft Crosby and we likely don't sign Ngakoue so Philon, Hayward and Wright are still feasible and realistic with our new DC. Maybe Coopers future money would have just gone to Mack?

On the adjacent point about Cooper I think the trade was the right decision. He just didn't fit here, something was awry. What he has produced since he may or may not have gotten here but he went to a favourable situation for him. It worked out for both teams I think if Abram can continue on the upward trend and that 20mil if course can be said to have paid for the guys listed above also....... Or Trent Brown.......

It’s not subjective to say that Cooper is overpaid if you just look at the people that he’s paid higher than:

Tyreek Hill

Allen Robinson(ninth last year with alternating quarterbacks and has led the NFL in receiving TDS before)

Devante Adams(top 5 in receiving last year and basically every year)

Mike Evans(has been five and receiving before

Stefon Diggs( #1 in receiving last year)

travis Kelce(Second in receiving last year)

George Kittle(when healthy can’t be stopped by any one person)

We’re talking about a guy that’s never a lead the NFL in receiving or even been top-five in any receiving category at his position. What is subjective about that? 

Meanwhile Darren Waller is top 10 and receiving last year top 5 in receptions and top 10 touchdowns last year. 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Jeremy408

[Darbsk]

8 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

It’s not subjective to say that Cooper is overpaid if you just look at the people that he’s paid higher than:

Tyreek Hill

Allen Robinson(ninth last year with alternating quarterbacks and has led the NFL in receiving TDS before)

Devante Adams(top 5 in receiving last year and basically every year)

Mike Evans(has been five and receiving before

Stefon Diggs( #1 in receiving last year)

travis Kelce(Second in receiving last year)

George Kittle(when healthy can’t be stopped by any one person)

We’re talking about a guy that’s never a lead the NFL in receiving or even been top-five in any receiving category at his position. What is subjective about that? 

Meanwhile Darren Waller is top 10 and receiving last year top 5 in receptions and top 10 touchdowns last year. 

I think you misunderstand. The Mack trade and the players we paid instead is the subjective part I meant. We can say we got A, B and C instead or you can say X, Y and Z instead. The players that form part of the equation is subjective 🙂

Totally agree with the above with regards Cooper 👍 He's good for Dallas but is still overpaid when compared to his peers. He's not worth that money, totally agree there.

[big_palooka]

1 hour ago, Geezy said:

We’re better and younger now, fight me 

Sure, but they'd would be a lot BETTER if they didn't whiff on all the draft capital. 5 first round picks including 4 overall and they walked away with zero impact players. 

[Jeremy408]

1 hour ago, big_palooka said:

Sure, but they'd would be a lot BETTER if they didn't whiff on all the draft capital. 5 first round picks including 4 overall and they walked away with zero impact players. 

True(for now)But I think that's two different arguments though. 

[Jeremy408]

2 hours ago, Darbsk said:

I think you misunderstand. The Mack trade and the players we paid instead is the subjective part I meant. We can say we got A, B and C instead or you can say X, Y and Z instead. The players that form part of the equation is subjective 🙂

Totally agree with the above with regards Cooper 👍 He's good for Dallas but is still overpaid when compared to his peers. He's not worth that money, totally agree there.

If Mack on a 23.5 Million per year I would've done the same exact thing as they did. on the whole the ends dont justify or unjustify the means part. I was just swapping the years to make that point