Zach Wilson decision looks bad now and Darnold looks like a gamer

[NYRaider]

Just now, ronjon1990 said:

It's also not like Sam Darnold is lighting the world on fire yet either. 

Definitely, Darnold has been better this season but the Panthers have scored 45 points in 2 games with a stacked supporting cast and a very good defense. 

[Norm]

Just now, NYRaider said:

For Zach Wilson I agree. He played at BYU where he was an okay prospect his first two seasons and then blew up as a junior. But in his final season there he never really dealt with a ton of media hype/expectation, had a very good college team around him, and hardly faced any adversity. The NY media is ruthless and he's playing on a team with a limited running game, a rookie head coach, and a rookie play caller. 

My question is, does that ruin a player who would 'otherwise' have been a star if they sat. I'm not sure it does. It obviously benefits some guys to sit but I feel like if you're drafted a guy at #2 anymore you're expecting him to be able to weather that.

That being said, I would never have willingly been the team to start Lance and he went 3

[Norm]

1 minute ago, Apparition said:

The thing about the Jets is that it wasn't like they brought in a veteran for Wilson to compete with/learn from, and then decided he was ready to start based on that competition. They skipped that phase of it entirely. Even though he was visibly struggling in camp.

I don't get it. There's differing opinions on how to handle QB development and I get that. But how do you not at least have that backstop in place?

Yeah that's a good point. Their backup is a bum. It's like they totally forced it for sure.

I actually didn't know that until they were saying you bench him yesterday and I looked who the backup was and laughed. That's odd for sure, even if you're going to start him wouldn't a guy who's at least played some help him. Maybe Mike white is a clipboard genius or something but still. 

[NYRaider]

Just now, Norm said:

My question is, does that ruin a player who would 'otherwise' have been a star if they sat. I'm not sure it does. It obviously benefits some guys to sit but I feel like if you're drafted a guy at #2 anymore you're expecting him to be able to weather that.

That being said, I would never have willingly been the team to start Lance and he went 3

I think QB success in general has a lot to do with where they end up. When you look at essentially every QB around the league that's considered top tier (Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Wilson, Dak, Lamar) they all landed in great spots. I think people underestimate the mental aspect of being a good QB in the NFL, which is why the majority of major CFB programs don't really produce a ton of top tier QBs.  Because in college they're surrounded by a team that is significantly more talented then essentially anyone they play and when they get to the NFL they're typically on a terrible team where they're getting hit a lot, making a ton of mistakes, and losing a lot of games. 

I'm not sure if playing this year will "ruin" Zach Wilson, it could go either way. The growing pains could help to make him into a better player or they could kill his confidence and create bad tendencies. 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

Zach Wilson PFF passing grade this week: 54.4

Patrick Mahomes: 52.3

[NYRaider]

5 minutes ago, Norm said:

Yeah that's a good point. Their backup is a bum. It's like they totally forced it for sure.

I actually didn't know that until they were saying you bench him yesterday and I looked who the backup was and laughed. That's odd for sure, even if you're going to start him wouldn't a guy who's at least played some help him. Maybe Mike white is a clipboard genius or something but still. 

Yeah and when you look at the situations that Lance/Fields went too they're a lot more favorable then the situations that Lawerence/Wilson went too. Lance isn't expected to start this season, while sitting behind a veteran QB that has been to the Super Bowl, with a head coach that has been to multiple Super Bowls as an OC/HC. Plus SF has a good supporting cast of weapons, can run the ball, and has a good defense. Fields isn't expected to start this year, while playing alongside 2 veteran QB's, both of whom have seen the ups and downs of the NFL. Dalton has been on competitive teams in Cincy and Foles has won a Super Bowl. The Bears also have a solid supporting cast, can run the ball, and have a good defense. 

Wilson/Lawerence are both on teams without a veteran QB to mentor them, have to start, and have rookie head coaches. 

[Norm]

7 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

I think QB success in general has a lot to do with where they end up. When you look at essentially every QB around the league that's considered top tier (Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Wilson, Dak, Lamar) they all landed in great spots. I think people underestimate the mental aspect of being a good QB in the NFL, which is why the majority of major CFB programs don't really produce a ton of top tier QBs.  Because in college they're surrounded by a team that is significantly more talented then essentially anyone they play and when they get to the NFL they're typically on a terrible team where they're getting hit a lot, making a ton of mistakes, and losing a lot of games. 

I'm not sure if playing this year will "ruin" Zach Wilson, it could go either way. The growing pains could help to make him into a better player or they could kill his confidence and create bad tendencies. 

And I agree with everything in the beginning there, the situation. The thing I start wondering is maybe that situation started looking pretty good because of the guy under center more than we always want to realize. I'm still agreeing with you but it's just been my thoughts more and more as the years went on. 

[FinSting]

Wilson struggled vs a Belichick defense? What an unexpected development. 

[Norm]

14 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Wilson/Lawerence are both on teams without a veteran QB to mentor them, have to start, and have rookie head coaches

Do you think there's some serious intent there? That they don't want some middling bridge QB and just went to get to working with the guy they hitched their wagon to?

That has to be the logic right?

 

[NYRaider]

5 minutes ago, Norm said:

And I agree with everything in the beginning there, the situation. The thing I start wondering is maybe that situation started looking pretty good because of the guy under center more than we always want to realize. I'm still agreeing with you but it's just been my thoughts more and more as the years went on. 

Tom Brady got to sit for a year behind a solid veteran QB, then took over in year two with an elite defense and one of the greatest coaches in NFL history. 

Patrick Mahomes got to sit for a year behind a solid veteran QB, then took over in year two for a team that had 5 consecutive winning seasons with one of the best coaches in NFL history and an offense that featured Hill, Kelcee, Watkins, and Hunt. 

Aaron Rodgers got to sit for 3 years behind a first ballot HOF QB, then took over with an offense that had 2 1,000 yard WR, a 1,000 yard rusher, and a defense that became top tier in his second season. 

Russell Wilson started as a rookie on a team with the best running game/defense in the NFL and a future HOF head coach in Pete Carroll. 

Dak Prescott started as a rookie on a team with a top 5 defense and the second best running game in the NFL.

Lamar Jackson took over late in his rookie season on a team with the best running game/defense in the NFL and a Super Bowl winning coach. 

[Norm]

1 minute ago, NYRaider said:

Tom Brady got to sit for a year behind a solid veteran QB, then took over in year two with an elite defense and one of the greatest coaches in NFL history. 

Patrick Mahomes got to sit for a year behind a solid veteran QB, then took over in year two for a team that had 5 consecutive winning seasons with one of the best coaches in NFL history and an offense that featured Hill, Kelcee, Watkins, and Hunt. 

Aaron Rodgers got to sit for 3 years behind a first ballot HOF QB, then took over with an offense that had 2 1,000 yard WR, a 1,000 yard rusher, and a defense that became top tier in his second season. 

Russell Wilson started as a rookie on a team with the best running game/defense in the NFL and a future HOF head coach in Pete Carroll. 

Dak Prescott started as a rookie on a team with a top 5 defense and the second best running game in the NFL.

Lamar Jackson took over late in his rookie season on a team with the best running game/defense in the NFL and a Super Bowl winning coach. 

Fair enough, I have no decent counter to this lol

[NYRaider]

4 minutes ago, Norm said:

Do you think there's some serious intent there? That they don't want some middling bridge QB and just went to get to working with the guy they hitched their wagon to?

That has to be the logic right?

Ehh. I think it was a young HC mismanaging the team to be honest. Look at the first round QB's from the last two years. 

Lance, Fields, Tua, Fields, Herbert and Love all went to teams with an experienced veteran on the roster. 

Lawerence, Wilson, and Burrow all went to teams with no real veteran presence on the team. 

As a Raiders fan when we drafted Carr, I think having Schaub as the backup was huge for his development. Obviously Schaub was old and washed at that point but he had been a starting QB for years that had actually won games and been through the ups and downs of the league. 

[NYRaider]

4 minutes ago, Norm said:

Fair enough, I have no decent counter to this lol

I also think there's also a lot of history to suggest that the better NFL QB's were guys that were taken later in the draft or by teams that were already decent/good that traded up to get them. Wilson, Brady, and Dak were all mid to late round picks. Lamar/Rodgers were late 1st round picks by good teams that already had a solid veteran starting QB. And the Chiefs traded up to get Mahomes with a very good team already in place. 

How often does the first QB off the board or the QB taken #1 overall end up being the best QB from their class or have a ton of NFL success? IIRC only Peyton/Newton have been MVPs and only Peyton/Eli have won Super Bowls with the team that drafted them. 

[Norm]

11 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Ehh. I think it was a young HC mismanaging the team to be honest. Look at the first round QB's from the last two years. 

Lance, Fields, Tua, Fields, Herbert and Love all went to teams with an experienced veteran on the roster. 

Lawerence, Wilson, and Burrow all went to teams with no real veteran presence on the team. 

As a Raiders fan when we drafted Carr, I think having Schaub as the backup was huge for his development. Obviously Schaub was old and washed at that point but he had been a starting QB for years that had actually won games and been through the ups and downs of the league. 

I mean, do those three coaches really not understand the value of a veteran behind the young QB? I'd give them more credit for that. I'll still call it mismanagement, but it was intentional so they weren't letting the rookie get pressured because they wanted them to play. I'm not saying that they're right though, at all

[NYRaider]

7 minutes ago, Norm said:

I mean, do those three coaches really not understand the value of a veteran behind the young QB? I'd give them more credit for that. I'll still call it mismanagement, but it was intentional so they weren't letting the rookie get pressured because they wanted them to play. I'm not saying that they're right though, at all

The Jets have a rookie head coach/offensive coordinator, the Bengals had a second year head coach/offensive coordinator, and the Jaguars had a rookie head coach with zero previous NFL coaching experience. 

The 49ers already had Jimmy G when they drafted Lance, the Bears already had Foles/had just signed Dalton when they drafted Fields, the Dolphins already had Fitzpatrick when they drafted Tua, the Chargers already had Tyrod when they drafted Herbert, and the Packers already had Rodgers when they drafted Love. 

New York was already committed to moving on from Darnold who was also a young QB when the new regime took over. Cincy cut Dalton immediately after drafting Burrow, which was probably a mistake but I don't think Dalton wanted to be a backup or mentor. The Jaguars had Minshew who was also a young QB but was pretty meh and wasn't a guy that the new regime seemed to be too fond of. 

Plus there weren't really a ton of good veteran QB's on the market that were likely going to be fans of signing with a team that was drafting a QB early. Winston, Dalton, and Newton all signed with teams that they believed they'd start for. I think Alex Smith would've been great for the Jaguars considering his relationship with Urban and his history with other young QB's and as a former #1 overall pick but I believe he retired due to injuries?

Edited September 20, 2021 by NYRaider