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How Do You Divide the Blame for Broncos' Current Sorry State?


AnAngryAmerican

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26 minutes ago, broncosfan07 said:

The problem with trying to sign a FA QB like Cousins or Luck is we definitely can but we will have to release quite a few higher paid players. 

 

It worked with Manning because our talented players were mostly on cheap or rookie contacts and weren't due for a big extension allowing us to sign Vasquez and Ware and Talib. We definitely can go down that route again but right now we lack those talented younger players to step up.

Exactly.  There are no cheap players ready to replace the more expensive talent.   That’s how Elway built a contender. The 2011 draft in its entirety and the Day 3 picks and cheap FA / UDFA gave us our complete D and much deeper O than we now have. 

 

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25 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Exactly.  There are no cheap players ready to replace the more expensive talent.   That’s how Elway built a contender. The 2011 draft in its entirety and the Day 3 picks and cheap FA / UDFA gave us our complete D and much deeper O than we now have. 

 

I think we have enough talent as long as we land a franchise qb I don't think you realize how huge that is.

Look at philly Wentz is makung ertz have a career year, Jeffrey also isnt bad other than that they aren't loaded offensively. 

And sustaining drives helps a defense out so much. Its why a team like Dallas did what they did last year. Or Peyton in his early years here.

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10 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

I think we have enough talent as long as we land a franchise qb I don't think you realize how huge that is.

Look at philly Wentz is makung ertz have a career year, Jeffrey also isnt bad other than that they aren't loaded offensively. 

And sustaining drives helps a defense out so much. Its why a team like Dallas did what they did last year. Or Peyton in his early years here.

PHI has a top 5 OL.  They have the 8th ranked D by DVOA - and that's even though they lost their starting All-Rookie ILB Jordan Hicks, and Pro Bowl LT Jason Peters, and top CB Ronald Darby for the entire season, and are starting 2 inexperienced CB's.   Complete DL, ILB/S corps that makes them play up.  

Ertz is a top 3 TE - it's not a career year.   Their WR corps is actually more talented than ours - Mack Hollins is raw, but a great Jeffery replacement, and Nelson Agholor actually has played really well.  Yes, Wentz makes them better - but he's surrounded by an ELITE OL and has a D that's actually great at stopping the run...and their pass rush masks their CB deficiencies.  

And let's not forget the 5th ranked ST unit.  You know, the same area where we rank 32nd.

So, a great OL, a top 10 run game, a top 10 D and a top 5 ST unit.   Wentz is a great young QB - but what makes them a great team is they are complete, other than CB - and there, they are emerging.   

 

Great example of overvaluing our own talent and undervaluing another team's.  Your post just proved the point, well done.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

PHI has a top 5 OL.  They have the 8th ranked D by DVOA - and that's even though they lost their starting All-Rookie ILB Jordan Hicks, and Pro Bowl LT Jason Peters, and top CB Ronald Darby for the entire season, and are starting 2 inexperienced CB's.   Complete DL, ILB/S corps that makes them play up.  

Ertz is a top 3 TE - it's not a career year.   Their WR corps is actually more talented than ours - Mack Hollins is raw, but a great Jeffery replacement, and Nelson Agholor actually has played really well.  Yes, Wentz makes them better - but he's surrounded by an ELITE OL and has a D that's actually great at stopping the run...and their pass rush masks their CB deficiencies.  

And let's not forget the 5th ranked ST unit.  You know, the same area where we rank 32nd.

So, a great OL, a top 10 run game, a top 10 D and a top 5 ST unit.   Wentz is a great young QB - but what makes them a great team is they are complete, other than CB - and there, they are emerging.   

Great example of overvaluing our own talent and undervaluing another team's.  Your post just proved the point, well done.

 

 

Their line I give you but half their weapons were busts until wentz broke out. Fowler looked half decent with Manning at,the helm thats not coincidental  

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We have a -12 turnover ratio at,some point thats coaching it shouldnt be that tough to hold onto the ball. Also we are winning the battle in yards both passing and rushing but aren't scoring touchdowns. We are being out done 22 to 16 thats pathetic given how good the defense still is. The offense isn't taking care of the ball or scoring tds. Largely a majority of that is on the qb.

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We have a -12 turnover ratio at,some point thats coaching it shouldnt be that tough to hold onto the ball. Also we are winning the battle in yards both passing and rushing but aren't scoring touchdowns. We are being out done 22 to 16 thats pathetic given how good the defense still is. The offense isn't taking care of the ball or scoring tds. Largely a majority of that is on the qb.

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29 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

Their line I give you but half their weapons were busts until wentz broke out.

TE's take time, that's the issue with counting on them.  Ertz actually broke out last year while Wentz was still struggling - in the 2H of last year, he was actually the TE with the most targets, and 3rd most catches and yards in the NFL.  That's right, the entire league.  The whole time that Wentz was just a young, struggling rookie.  Wentz in the 2H?  7 TD/11 INT's, 74.3 QBR in Nov/Dec , as opposed 9 TD/3 INT in Sept/Oct and 93+ QBR.   But you want to say Ertz 2H breakout was due to Wentz, go ahead - the tape, and the #'s point otherwise.    Blount & Jeffery weren't on the team last year.  Neither was Hollins.  Awful, awful, awful analysis on the Eagles weapons.    That's frankly an analysis from a fan not familiar with that team. 

PHI is a complete team - your assessment that it's all Wentz is so naive it's actually an insult to the Eagles.   Top 5 OL, top 10 run D, top 10 pass D (which is a testament to that front 7 and S, their CB's are inexperienced beyond Darby, who's missed most of 1H this year with that gruesome ankle injury),  And look a little deeper at how they are doing it - top OL, top D, and top ST.     And, look to how they did it - take a look at their 2013-2017 drafts:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/phi/draft.htm

2013 - Lane Johnson (sure, early rd 1, easy you say...but), Zach Ertz, Bennie Logan Rds 1-3 - notice how PHI didn't miss on their Rd 2-3 picks. 

2014 - Marcus Smith, Jordan Matthews (who they turned into Ronald Darby this year), Josh Huff, Beau Allen Rd 7 - Huff and Smith were meh, but Matthews was their starter - and then they turned him into Ronald Darby.  Again, getting value from their picks.

2015 - Nelson Agholor, Eric Rowe, Jordan Hicks Rds 1-3.  Again, Agholor was late in emerging, but notice usable starters and great talent...on Day 2.

2016 - Wentz 1.1, then only picked until Rd 3  & Rd 5 - still found a usable asset in Wendell Smallwood Rd 5, and their starting CB in Jalen Mills in Rd 7.   

2017 - Derek Barnett Rd 1, Sydney Jones Rd 2, Rasul Douglas Rd 3, Mack Hollins Rd 4 - Jones is an injury stash, but notice how PHI again has starters from Rd 1 & 3, and Hollins is their legit Jeffery heir.   

PHI hasn't had a perfect draft record, and Elway's had more late rd hits - but PHI isn't missing on the Day 2 picks much at all.  And that's how you build a team that's complete in ALL aspects of the game.   Min-wage talent that is league-average, or better - and in a few key cases, strike it big with elite talent.    As opposed to what we have from our failed Day 2 picks (and increasingly need-based reaches in Round 1 that aren't as much of a difference maker as we could have had).    A franchise QB makes things a lot easier - but PHI isn't 8-1 and a SB favorite because they have Wentz - it's because they have Wentz AND a complete team - and strongest where it counts - in the trenches (OL and front 7 on D).    

Sure we'd all love a franchise QB - but we need to rebuild strength on the trenches - our OL, our front 7 (our ILB's are a disaster), and we need better talent overall at our skill positions.   And we'll need to replace some of our expensive talent with cheaper guys to make it happen.  And that starts with not missing as badly as Elway has on Day 2, and of late, Day 1 (Sly & Lynch by the looks of it, too soon on Bolles either way).

It's EXACTLY this type of "we're only 1-2 guys away" type thinking that got Elway into this mess.   We're not 1 franchise QB away.   A franchise QB will of course help - but not if we gut what talent we have in order to get one.   Let's not repeat insanity but learn from our mistakes.

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20 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

TE's take time, that's the issue with counting on them.  Ertz actually broke out last year while Wentz was still struggling - in the 2H of last year, he was actually the TE with the most targets, and 3rd most catches and yards in the NFL.  That's right, the entire league.  The whole time that Wentz was just a young, struggling rookie.  Wentz in the 2H?  7 TD/11 INT's, 74.3 QBR in Nov/Dec , as opposed 9 TD/3 INT in Sept/Oct and 93+ QBR.   But you want to say Ertz 2H breakout was due to Wentz, go ahead - the tape, and the #'s point otherwise.    Blount & Jeffery weren't on the team last year.  Neither was Hollins.  Awful, awful, awful analysis on the Eagles weapons.    That's frankly an analysis from a fan not familiar with that team. 

PHI is a complete team - your assessment that it's all Wentz is so naive it's actually an insult to the Eagles.   And look a little deeper at how they are doing it, take a look at their 2013-2017 draft:

2013 - Lane Johnson (sure, early rd 1, easy you say...but), Zach Ertz, Bennie Logan Rds 1-3 - notice how PHI didn't miss on their Rd 2-3 picks. 

2014 - Marcus Smith, Jordan Matthews (who they turned into Ronald Darby this year), Josh Huff, Beau Allen Rd 7 - Huff and Smith were meh, but Matthews was their starter - and then they turned him into Ronald Darby.  Again, getting value from their picks.

2015 - Nelson Agholor, Eric Rowe, Jordan Hicks Rds 1-3.  Again, Agholor was late in emerging, but notice usable starters and great talent...on Day 2.

2016 - Wentz 1.1, then only picked until Rd 3  & Rd 5 - still found a usable asset in Wendell Smallwood Rd 5, and their starting CB in Jalen Mills in Rd 7.   

2017 - Derek Barnett Rd 1, Sydney Jones Rd 2, Rasul Douglas Rd 3, Mack Hollins Rd 4 - Jones is an injury stash, but notice how PHI again has starters from Rd 1 & 3, and Hollins is their legit Jeffery heir.   

PHI hasn't had a perfect draft record, and Elway's had more late rd hits - but PHI isn't missing on the Day 2 picks much at all.  And that's how you build a team that's complete in ALL aspects of the game.   Min-wage talent that is league-average, or better - and in a few key cases, strike it big with elite talent.    As opposed to what we have from our failed Day 2 picks (and increasingly need-based reaches in Round 1 that aren't as much of a difference maker as we could have had).    A franchise QB makes things a lot easier - but PHI isn't 8-1 and a SB favorite because they have Wentz - it's because they have Wentz AND a complete team - and strongest where it counts - in the trenches (OL and front 7 on D).    

Sure we'd all love a franchise QB - but we need to rebuild strength on the trenches - our OL, our front 7 (our ILB's are a disaster), and we need better talent overall at our skill positions.   And we'll need to replace some of our expensive talent with cheaper guys to make it happen.  And that starts with not missing as badly as Elway has on Day 2, and of late, Day 1 (Sly & Lynch by the looks of it, too soon on Bolles either way).

It's EXACTLY this type of "we're only 1-2 guys away" type thinking that got Elway into this mess.   We're not 1 franchise QB away.   A franchise QB will of course help - but not if we gut what talent we have in order to get one.   Let's not repeat insanity but learn from our mistakes.

You point out phillys drafts like to prove a point I still don't know what that is. Marcus Smith was one of the biggest busts in recent memory he did nothing. Agholor was literally a colossal bust until this year it's no coincidence that it corresponds to Wentz emerging. Eric Rowe was a bust thats why,they dumped him a year later for peanuts.  They have had their fair share of early round failures just as much.

You get a franchise qb and improve the oline this offense will have weapons you didn't know existed.

Elway needs to stop putting lipstick on a pig and actually land a surpreme talent at qb because right now this team has no identity.  And honestly they look disinterested which is on the coaching and lack in faith of a qb to rally around.

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13 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

You point out phillys drafts like to prove a point I still don't know what that is. Marcus Smith was one of the biggest busts in recent memory he did nothing. Agholor was literally a colossal bust until this year it's no coincidence that it corresponds to Wentz emerging. Eric Rowe was a bust thats why,they dumped him a year later for peanuts.  They have had their fair share of early round failures just as much.

You get a franchise qb and improve the oline this offense will have weapons you didn't know existed.

Elway needs to stop putting lipstick on a pig and actually land a surpreme talent at qb because right now this team has no identity.  And honestly they look disinterested which is on the coaching and lack in faith of a qb to rally around.

You pointed out their 3 failures from 5 years of drafting for PHI in rounds 1-3.    Count our 2013-2017 Day 1 & 2 picks - we haven't hit on one solid Rd 2-3 pick yet, except the 1 time we traded back from Rd 1 to pick Wolfe at 2.34.   NOT one pick that's originally Rd 2-3.   That's 11 if none of our Rd 2-3 picks from 2017 work out, but at least 8 if we're not counting them.    And we can at least say we've had 2 failed first rounders.   No one gets it perfect, and frankly, PHI isn't even a top 5 drafting team overall - but we look outright embarrassing compared to PHI's haul of starters they have on the 2017 team compared to what we've had and whiffed on from 2013-2017 Day 1&2.    Great, the Eagles missed 3.   We've missed ten and maybe as much as thirteen.   THIRTEEN.    Elway's a master of Day 3 - but he's killed us with his reaches on Day 2, and of late, his need to draft with a one-player away style that's left us with more need picks that either fail, or lower our overall talent ceiling that was available. 

Man, wake and smell the coffee.   Our problem isn't just QB - we've got an overall lack of talent on O, and a lack of cheap talent on D, because our FA and draft bargains from the past aren't there anymore.    I get it's easier to believe we are one QB away - we just aren't. 

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2 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

I forget what its like to have a qb who converts third downs I can't even imaginethe wonders it would do for this team like it is in Philly. 

You put Carson Wentz on the Broncos today and they would be 7 and 0

You put Carson Wentz on our team and he'd be on IR. 

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40 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

You pointed out their 3 failures from 5 years of drafting for PHI in rounds 1-3.    Count our 2013-2017 Day 1 & 2 picks - we haven't hit on one solid Rd 2-3 pick yet, except the 1 time we traded back from Rd 1 to pick Wolfe at 2.34.   NOT one pick that's originally Rd 2-3.   That's 11 if none of our Rd 2-3 picks from 2017 work out, but at least 8 if we're not counting them.    And we can at least say we've had 2 failed first rounders.   No one gets it perfect, and frankly, PHI isn't even a top 5 drafting team overall - but we look outright embarrassing compared to PHI's haul of starters they have on the 2017 team compared to what we've had and whiffed on from 2013-2017 Day 1&2.    Great, the Eagles missed 3.   We've missed ten and maybe as much as thirteen.   THIRTEEN.    Elway's a master of Day 3 - but he's killed us with his reaches on Day 2, and of late, his need to draft with a one-player away style that's left us with more need picks that either fail, or lower our overall talent ceiling that was available. 

Man, wake and smell the coffee.   Our problem isn't just QB - we've got an overall lack of talent on O, and a lack of cheap talent on D, because our FA and draft bargains from the past aren't there anymore.    I get it's easier to believe we are one QB away - we just aren't. 

I'm not saying a qb away well maybe I am for the playoffs.I get the talent on offense isnt what it needs to be but I don't think it's ridiculously off. The rt needs to be addressed. I would also like to get a look at Mcgovern to see how he fairs at guard. Wr corps its so hard to tell because our second round pick Carlos Henderson hasn't played, with tightend butt hasnt played, rb I really would like to see Henderson play. Charels at this point is a waste of a roster spot.

Qb Lynch after the Patriots game I want him playing the final 7 games.  Defensively I really like how our trench play improved Gotsis has improved a lot many arent giving him credit. I would like to see carter used in some ways see if he can cover tight ends.

It all comes down to the margin for error it really is so small. IT'S why an 8 and 8 led Tebow team turned into a division winner. Guys like Julius Thomas turned into stars, Moreno revives his career and so fourth.

The fact is this team was never winning a title without a franchise qb, and Peyton was really underappreciated his final year here. Those are facts.

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@thebestever6 I respect the fact that you are one of the most loyal and optimistic guys on board.  No one wants to lose hope.   And sure, a QB would for sure help.  It's silly to argue otherwise.

But remember, Peyton was a god in 2013 - and we got crushed by a more complete team.  Elway took that lesson to heart and built a balanced, more complete team that won in 2015 - ironically when Peyton-corpse wasn't a good QB anymore.   That's the irony in all of this.  Elway's forgotten the need to be complete and talented across the board - that philosophy in drafting and FA is what allowed him to rebuild the team from the ashes in 2011 to contention so quickly along with Peyton.  The two went hand in hand.

The problem is that now, Elway is still in that 2013-2015 mode where he thinks we're just 1-2 guys away - LT & QB this year.   Now we're going to say QB & RT next year.  The reality is, we need help in 6-7 key areas on O alone - RT, G, 3rd WR, still need a TE (Jake Butt awesome value, NO WAY you can rely on him being the guy in 2018...guys take time.  Look at Zach Ertz!).   Probably need a new RB if CJ's mileage is catching up to pair with Booker (and again, for all of the greatness in preseason, it's just preseason - so no, can't count on DeAngelo Henderson until he shows some real reg. season promise).  

On D, Peko has been a godsend for run D - but we need a long-term solution there.   Gotsis after a nice first 2-3 games, has disappeared.   Harris has been OK, but we don't win with Harris/Gotsis as our next 2 DE besides Wolfe.   On ILB we need at least 1, and if Marshall can't regain his 2015 quickness, maybe TWO starters.  We need to think about a 3rd CB very soon with Talib's $ - and if PHI was the first sign of age-related decline, that's entire possible too.  

So, we're looking at needing to overhaul or upgrade at least 7-8 key areas.  And here's the kicker - that's what most mediocre teams have, too.   Frankly, it's fair to say out of all the AFCW teams, we have the most holes to fill for 2018+.   That statement that guys like @BroncosFan2010, @broncos67 and @AnAngryAmerican about us being the 4th most talented team?    Spot on.

The difference with 2015 isn't just Peyton (who we forget was pretty awful then) is that we had a complete D, and a functional OL in 2015.  HUGE difference.   To suggest we're even close to that...man, I appreciate the need for hope, but we also need to be realistic.   Our best reason for hope is that Elway's always learned from his mistakes and adapted to them - this season will clearly open his eyes - I just hope it opens them enough for him to go back to to 2011-2013 build-overall-talent approach to the draft (and for god's sake, get a real college scouting director to take over the draft, at least for Day 1-2; let Elway keep Day 3 so he can spin his magic there, but keep him the hell away from Day 1-2).

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1 minute ago, Broncofan said:

@thebestever6 I respect the fact that you are one of the most loyal and optimistic guys on board.  No one wants to lose hope.   And sure, a QB would for sure help.  It's silly to argue otherwise.

But remember, Peyton was a god in 2013 - and we got crushed by a more complete team.  Elway took that lesson to heart and built a balanced, more complete team that won in 2015 - ironically when Peyton-corpse wasn't a good QB anymore.   That's the irony in all of this.  Elway's forgotten the need to be complete and talented across the board - that philosophy in drafting and FA is what allowed him to rebuild the team from the ashes in 2011 to contention so quickly along with Peyton.  The two went hand in hand.

The problem is that now, Elway is still in that 2013-2015 mode where he thinks we're just 1-2 guys away - LT & QB this year.   Now we're going to say QB & RT next year.  The reality is, we need help in 6-7 key areas - RT, G, 3rd WR, still need a TE (Jake Butt awesome value, NO WAY you can rely on him being the guy in 2018...guys take time.  Look at Zach Ertz!).   Probably need a new RB if CJ's mileage is catching up to pair with Booker (and again, for all of the greatness in preseason, it's just preseason - so no, can't count on DeAngelo Henderson until he shows some real reg. season promise).  

On D, Peko has been a godsend for run D - but we need a long-term solution there.   Gotsis after a nice first 2-3 games, has disappeared.   Harris has been OK, but we don't win with Harris/Gotsis as our next 2 DE besides Wolfe.   On ILB we need at least 1, and if Marshall can't regain his 2015 quickness, maybe TWO starters.  We need to think about a 3rd CB very soon with Talib's $ - and if PHI was the first sign of age-related decline, that's entire possible too.  

The difference is we had a complete D, and a functional OL in 2015.  HUGE difference.   To suggest we're even close to that...man, I appreciate the need for hope, but we also need to be realistic.

How is Elway in win now 2 to 3 players away mode.  He drafted a corner in round 3 a position we are deepest at. If it's because we drafted a left tackle that wasn't just to win now. I'm sure elway feels if we draft top 10 again qb,is the number one priority.  Also the player everyone was banging the table for is a Walking injury. Jake Butt was a pure future builder. 

I just dont get the logic of Elway being 13 to 15 mode I have not gotten that impression at,all.

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