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How Do You Divide the Blame for Broncos' Current Sorry State?


AnAngryAmerican

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3 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

How is Elway in win now 2 to 3 players away mode.  He drafted a corner in round 3 a position we are deepest at. If it's because we drafted a left tackle that wasn't just to win now. I'm sure elway feels if we draft top 10 again qb,is the number one priority.  Also the player everyone was banging the table for is a Walking injury. Jake Butt was a pure future builder. 

I just dont get the logic of Elway being 13 to 15 mode I have not gotten that impression at,all.

He took Lynch round 1 last year because he saw QB as our biggest need - if he doesn't want to get a QB, BPA was DT Chris Jones.    He took a LT who was clearly nowhere near the BPA overall this year.   Not even close.  Pure need picks.  

He took THREE guys to upgrade ST this year with a similar skill set.     Again, he went need to try and upgrade now over accumulating best overall talents.    It's not even an argument.

I love Elway overall, but remember - you said this draft would be his biggest and most important one yet.   It's too soon to call individuals out as hits/misses - but he also clearly went need early and then made multiple picks to try and upgrade now.  And before you point to injury on Carlos Henderson - he had an injury that was 4-6 weeks - but Elway & co. decided to give him a whole year off by not putting him on IR-return, but IR before the 53-man roster.   So the gamble to try and upgrade now immediately with the draft (which is not the way drafts work, the best effect is the next year, even 2 for later developmental picks) is one Elway took - and he's failed miserably in getting a 2017 result.  The results speak for themselves.   Doesn't mean he can't learn from his mistakes, but he's clearly gone for need now.   Again, not even a question.

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8 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

He took Lynch round 1 last year - if he doesn't want to get a QB, BPA was DT Chris Jones.    He took a LT who was clearly nowhere near the BPA overall this year.   Not even close.  Pure need picks.  

He took THREE guys to upgrade ST this year.     Again, went need to try and upgrade now over accumulating best overall talents.    It's not even an argument.

Well agree to disagree I think Bolles was near the top at bpa it wasn't outlandish.  

And Carlos Henderson wasn't a pick just to improve special teams you don't draft a guy in round 3 just to do that. It was a projection pick. The jury is still out.

And Paxton was also a projection which isn't looking good but the final 7 games will give us the complete narrative. 

I feel bad for Elway because Denver needed a qb and Lynch was at the top for bpa but unless you have a top 10 pick which Elway often hasn't had the luxory of its hard to get a franchise qb. I can't kill Elway for the Lynch pick .

I kill him for sticking with Brock so long.  At what point in 3 years before the Carr draft did he show signs of being the guy. 

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8 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

Well agree to disagree I think Bolles was near the top at bpa it wasn't outlandish.  

And Carlos Henderson wasn't a pick just to improve special teams you don't draft a guy in round 3 just to do that. It was a projection pick. The jury is still out.

And Paxton was also a projection which isn't looking good but the final 7 games will give us the complete narrative. 

I feel bad for Elway because Denver needed a qb and Lynch was at the top for bpa but unless you have a top 10 pick which Elway often hasn't had the luxory of its hard to get a franchise qb. I can't kill Elway for the Lynch pick .

I kill him for sticking with Brock so long.  At what point in 3 years before the Carr draft did he show signs of being the guy. 

Here's the thing - your opinion above is because suddenly we're losing, and looking to next year.   The fact we're losing is changing how you view the draft now.   Because the notion that we drafted for the here and now is no longer tenable.

Don't believe me?  Well, I don't need to convince you - I'll let your own analysis of our draft be the speaker here.   Steak and sizzle.   Domination.    Not "hey he's a developmental project".  

Best draft class ever (including 2011).   That's the enthusiasm we all love...but it's also very misguided in Henderson's case, and this overall draft.    Your view has gone 180 degrees in perspective of now vs. future.   Consider that.

On 8/10/2017 at 12:24 AM, thebestever6 said:

I got Carlos Henderson I know he started slow in camp. But for some reason Vance Joseph said he was out of shape. He is progressing and I just think his yards after the catch will be amazing. The guy breaks tackles and can dominate the middle of the field where there are the most soft spots.

 

I've been on record saying this is the best draft class since elway has become gm. It has steak and sizzle and these guys will make an impact for years to come. 

 

It's hard to find contributors throughout the draft our roster considered and this is the first complete draft I think Elway did that.

 

It's not 2011 looking for starters because denvers roster was below average, it's not 2012 looking for guys to help or replace peyton. It's a complete draft that will do wonders for us.

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7 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Here's the thing - your opinion above is because suddenly we're losing, and looking to next year.   The fact we're losing is changing how you view the draft now.   Because the notion that we drafted for the here and now is no longer tenable.

Don't believe me?  Well, I don't need to convince you - I'll let your own analysis of our draft be the speaker here.  

I'll stick by my words that 2017 was the best draft class Elway has had since 2011. But you stating that all those picks were made to win now are wrong.

Henderson had issues learning the playbook in college he will take time, Butt is coming off a torn acl he will take time. Langley is new to the cb position he will take time. Walker still needs to fill out his frame he will take time. And Bolles a rookie left tackle with one year of experience will take time.

I THINK that if I or you or anyone thinks Elway thought he was hitching his wagon to Siemian to win now isn't giving Elway enough credit forahadowing.

Elway didn't make those picks to win now. 

Obviously the fan in us all hopes for the best but he didn't. 

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6 hours ago, Broncofan said:

@thebestever6 I respect the fact that you are one of the most loyal and optimistic guys on board.  No one wants to lose hope.   And sure, a QB would for sure help.  It's silly to argue otherwise.

But remember, Peyton was a god in 2013 - and we got crushed by a more complete team.  Elway took that lesson to heart and built a balanced, more complete team that won in 2015 - ironically when Peyton-corpse wasn't a good QB anymore.   That's the irony in all of this.  Elway's forgotten the need to be complete and talented across the board - that philosophy in drafting and FA is what allowed him to rebuild the team from the ashes in 2011 to contention so quickly along with Peyton.  The two went hand in hand.

The problem is that now, Elway is still in that 2013-2015 mode where he thinks we're just 1-2 guys away - LT & QB this year.   Now we're going to say QB & RT next year.  The reality is, we need help in 6-7 key areas on O alone - RT, G, 3rd WR, still need a TE (Jake Butt awesome value, NO WAY you can rely on him being the guy in 2018...guys take time.  Look at Zach Ertz!).   Probably need a new RB if CJ's mileage is catching up to pair with Booker (and again, for all of the greatness in preseason, it's just preseason - so no, can't count on DeAngelo Henderson until he shows some real reg. season promise).  

On D, Peko has been a godsend for run D - but we need a long-term solution there.   Gotsis after a nice first 2-3 games, has disappeared.   Harris has been OK, but we don't win with Harris/Gotsis as our next 2 DE besides Wolfe.   On ILB we need at least 1, and if Marshall can't regain his 2015 quickness, maybe TWO starters.  We need to think about a 3rd CB very soon with Talib's $ - and if PHI was the first sign of age-related decline, that's entire possible too.  

So, we're looking at needing to overhaul or upgrade at least 7-8 key areas.  And here's the kicker - that's what most mediocre teams have, too.   Frankly, it's fair to say out of all the AFCW teams, we have the most holes to fill for 2018+.   That statement that guys like @BroncosFan2010, @broncos67 and @AnAngryAmerican about us being the 4th most talented team?    Spot on.

The difference with 2015 isn't just Peyton (who we forget was pretty awful then) is that we had a complete D, and a functional OL in 2015.  HUGE difference.   To suggest we're even close to that...man, I appreciate the need for hope, but we also need to be realistic.   Our best reason for hope is that Elway's always learned from his mistakes and adapted to them - this season will clearly open his eyes - I just hope it opens them enough for him to go back to to 2011-2013 build-overall-talent approach to the draft (and for god's sake, get a real college scouting director to take over the draft, at least for Day 1-2; let Elway keep Day 3 so he can spin his magic there, but keep him the hell away from Day 1-2).

I think you have to draft BPA, pick after pick, year after year, keep the pipeline going.

I think, even if they've made some (maybe many) mistakes, that's what this FO is at least trying to do. I think, even this year, DeMarcus Walker and Brendan Langley were examples of that. Yes, Walker is a 'tweener (he's not  a 3-4 OLB and he's not a 3-4 DE) but there's a player from a good program, who excelled against elite competition, that they have to coach-up. Langley has as much raw physical talent as there is in a rookie CB. Jake Butt has a Jason Witten-like skill set (I'm not saying he's going to be Jason Witten, FYI) and that was incredible value to get that guy, from a pro-style offense who got NFL-like coaching at Michigan, in the 5th-freaking-round. He's redshirted this year. Okay I wanted to see him play too. 

They've crapped the bed on OLs (Sambrailo, Schofield, Garcia), RBs (Montee Ball) and QBs (Paxton? Oz?). Then with OL they reached for need with Bolles and got someone who appears to be a passable player. Bolles isn't going to be Ryan Clady or Gary Zimmerman, hell, he might not even be Matt Lepsis in his prime, but he's passable. It was a draft for need, a reach and he's never going to be an All Pro, but it filled a need. Frankly I'll still criticize the pick if and when OJ Howard turns into a Gronk- or Kelce-like TE or Rueben Foster becomes the next Patrick Willis. 

I actually think it's been the Peyton-era splurge in FA that has done us in. Cutting Ward may have been a recognition of that. A bunch of established, good to elite players were signed - Ware, Talib, Sanders and the aforementioned Ward - and in-house free-agents resigned at hometown discounts (Wolfe, Harris, Marshall) and we won a Super Bowl. 

They've lost their way one way or another, or are trying to have it both ways. 

One side said, "we have a good defense, reach for Bolles and hope Paxton becomes Dan Marino tomorrow." 

Another side said, "we want to build depth for the future, even if they don't fit in and contribute in 2017, draft Walker, Butt, Langley, Kelly and the Hendersons." 

And that was after the crazy side said, "Let's hire Matt "buy me a drink" Russel's frat brother to be our head coach."

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7 hours ago, thebestever6 said:

I kill him for sticking with Brock so long.  At what point in 3 years before the Carr draft did he show signs of being the guy.

Good point. In the second round of the 2014 draft, Elway should have taken Jimmy G over Latimer, and then traded OZ to Houston by the end of training camp for a late-rounder. 

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2 hours ago, 7DnBrnc53 said:

Good point. In the second round of the 2014 draft, Elway should have taken Jimmy G over Latimer, and then traded OZ to Houston by the end of training camp for a late-rounder. 

Completley agree and he might of netted a mid 3rd or fourth round pick. Elway could of sold the move as having Peyton and not needing Brock. In no shape or form has Brock ever looked like the future. After 3 years it was time to cut your losses and take the best deal to get rid of him. I feel like The Broncos did a good job hiding Brock for 3 years.  It's unfortunate the 3 years of himpracticing didn't tell them anything. 

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In 2017 alone we whiffed at positions of need in favor of projects or incomplete players.

I would tend to agree that Bolles was probably BPA at the time, with the exception of Reuben Foster. You could also, I suppose, make the case for Ramczyk. Evan Engram and Tre'Davious White are two of the better picks post-Bolles, but we were unlikely to take them, so I'm excluding them from this.

Round 2 and 3 is where the dumpster fire starts. The Walker pick over guys who are/could have been contributing in a big way like: Dalvin Tomlinson, Zach Cunningham, Juju, Alvin Kamara, Cooper Kupp- yeah, I would say maybe some of those offensive guys would be good "juice" players don't you? SWING AND A MISS. Don't forget taking Henderson over Kareem Hunt and D'Onta Foreman. How about taking an incredibly raw CB in Langley over: Tarik Cohen, Jaleel Johnson, Mack Hollins, Samaje Perine, Jaylen Reeves-Maybin

We routinely pass up early contributors for project guys in early rounds where we SHOULD be searching for contributors. Adam Gotsis finally playing halfway decent is semi encouraging, but that hasn't been the case for all of our players, and we're not even there year with Gotsis. We need to start finding high floor, upside guys in Rounds 2 and 3 like other successful teams do!

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1 hour ago, broncos67 said:

In 2017 alone we whiffed at positions of need in favor of projects or incomplete players.

I would tend to agree that Bolles was probably BPA at the time, with the exception of Reuben Foster. You could also, I suppose, make the case for Ramczyk. Evan Engram and Tre'Davious White are two of the better picks post-Bolles, but we were unlikely to take them, so I'm excluding them from this.

Round 2 and 3 is where the dumpster fire starts. The Walker pick over guys who are/could have been contributing in a big way like: Dalvin Tomlinson, Zach Cunningham, Juju, Alvin Kamara, Cooper Kupp- yeah, I would say maybe some of those offensive guys would be good "juice" players don't you? SWING AND A MISS. Don't forget taking Henderson over Kareem Hunt and D'Onta Foreman. How about taking an incredibly raw CB in Langley over: Tarik Cohen, Jaleel Johnson, Mack Hollins, Samaje Perine, Jaylen Reeves-Maybin

We routinely pass up early contributors for project guys in early rounds where we SHOULD be searching for contributors. Adam Gotsis finally playing halfway decent is semi encouraging, but that hasn't been the case for all of our players, and we're not even there year with Gotsis. We need to start finding high floor, upside guys in Rounds 2 and 3 like other successful teams do!

I now call day two of the draft the annual Elway reach-a-thon. I wouldn't have drafted guys like Sambo, Gotsis, Hillman, and Schofield in rounds 2 and 3. Heck (for those who have forgotten), Wolfe was considered a reach in Round 2. There were people who didn't know who he was. I remember listening to 104.3 The Fan's draft coverage back then, and Big Al was disappointed after they drafted him (he was wrong, though. He wanted guys like Jerel Worthy and Lamar Miller. I would have taken Cordy Glenn in Round 2 instead of Wolfe, and took Wolfe in Round 3 where they took Hillman). 

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I think we can all be a little lenient on the Sambo pick...some people had him going to us with our our #1 pick.  I was okay with the Hillman pick...he was decent for the Broncos and was certainly that third down, change of pace back that Elway coveted.  I think the jury is still out on Gotsis...I like the progress, can't wait for another off season for him to develop...but, I get what people say about him.  If you wanted to develop him...fine...but, he could have been had in the 4th or 5th round, in which case we would all be applauding.  The Schofield pick is dumbfounding.

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