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Week 4 GDT - Bears vs Lions


Sugashane

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4 hours ago, Madmike90 said:

Bush is being abused today...on the reply you an see he was confused as the ball was in the air.

Bush has never been a very good coverage guy.  I would rather see DH-C playing SS and EJAX at FS.  DH-C is a smarter player.  It's a better pairing.

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1 hour ago, blkwdw13 said:

I feel like I don't understand your term of "skying", I think he is kicking it lower and longer leading to his better distance but the coverage isn't able to get there. If he kicked it higher it wouldn't go as far but the covarage would be closer and shorter returns would be the result.

That is the general term for shorter kicks. A 61 yard boot that allows a 15 yard return vs a 40 yard punt with a zero yard return. The latter is what my old college coach referred to skying. To paraphrase him, "You kick the ball as high and far as you can, the 2 gunners are suppose to race down and make the tackle. The others block and break to the returner or read they're free and become gunners themselves. Quit worrying about the return, 10 other people are supposed to stop him. Kick the damn ball far."

Pat had the 4th most fair catches last year. The 2nd most in 2019. Around the middle in 2018, and 3rd least in 2018.

They've seemed to focus on both FCs and kicking it deep and the results have been mediocre for both. To me that is piss poor coaching.

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10 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

That is the general term for shorter kicks. A 61 yard boot that allows a 15 yard return vs a 40 yard punt with a zero yard return. The latter is what my old college coach referred to skying. To paraphrase him, "You kick the ball as high and far as you can, the 2 gunners are suppose to race down and make the tackle. The others block and break to the returner or read they're free and become gunners themselves. Quit worrying about the return, 10 other people are supposed to stop him. Kick the damn ball far."

Pat had the 4th most fair catches last year. The 2nd most in 2019. Around the middle in 2018, and 3rd least in 2018.

They've seemed to focus on both FCs and kicking it deep and the results have been mediocre for both. To me that is piss poor coaching.

Seems we are talking about the same ish thing, I've never been a fan of Tabor and O'Donnell has always been below average to average. They should both have been replaced, man does it seem like we say that a lot with the Bears.

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1 hour ago, Sugashane said:

Pat had the 4th most fair catches last year. The 2nd most in 2019. Around the middle in 2018, and 3rd least in 2018.

In most cases, a fair catch is indicative of how well a ST coverage is playing and this is largely dependent on each game based on several aspects that are happening at the time (how well the offense or defense is playing, time of possession, clock, field situations, etc). If your offense gets anywhere between your own 40 or the opponent's 40, and you punt, then you're looking to pin the opponent's offense inside the 10 and if the coverage unit gets there in time to either force a catch or touch a live ball down then the punter and coverage unit did their jobs.

 

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3 hours ago, soulman said:

Coverage seldom improves when you lose your two top Gunners but Tabor is surely no Dave Toub.

I'm not necessarily opposed to anyone having an issue with the coverage unit as a whole (because it is a problem so far). But I do have a problem with fans nit-picking at relatively small negative aspects of any coach while also ignoring the more important aspects of said coaches job, and understanding the situation.

We had a big issue at the K position and Tabor took an undrafted kicker in Santos and helped develop him into a K who hasn't missed a FG since last year (when he was injured).  Tabor also brought in Patterson and made him a top end return guy and gunner last year. Mcmanis became one of the best gunners in the league under tabor and Herbert is currently 6th in the league return yards.  Losing Patterson and McManis was going to be hard to replicate.

Let's give credit where it's rightfully due and weigh the negatives vs the positives. Which position makes the most difference in a game? A good kicker or a coverage unit?

 

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1 hour ago, JAF-N72EX said:

I'm not necessarily opposed to anyone having an issue with the coverage unit as a whole (because it is a problem so far). But I do have a problem with fans nit-picking at relatively small negative aspects of any coach while also ignoring the more important aspects of said coaches job, and understanding the situation.

We had a big issue at the K position and Tabor took an undrafted kicker in Santos and helped develop him into a K who hasn't missed a FG since last year (when he was injured).  Tabor also brought in Patterson and made him a top end return guy and gunner last year. Mcmanis became one of the best gunners in the league under tabor and Herbert is currently 6th in the league return yards.  Losing Patterson and McManis was going to be hard to replicate.

Let's give credit where it's rightfully due and weigh the negatives vs the positives. Which position makes the most difference in a game? A good kicker or a coverage unit?

 

When Santos went undrafted he did well in KC and set some team rookie records. In 2017 he got the injury bug and that IMO was the biggest derailing of his career. Hurt his groin, went to IR and was released from it just to be picked up by us before the injury put him back on IR. He had one nightmare game in TEN where he missed 4 FGs (2 in the 30s, when he had only 1 year of missing 2 in that range for a whole season) but has been stellar since being here. If Tabor was responsible for that then great. I'm skeptical though, Toub was with him for years and I think that had something to do with it too.

I can't say for sure about as a gunner but Patterson was a stud kick returner way before he got to us. He was a multiple All Pro already. Patterson made Tabor look good, not the other way around. McManis has been a standout on special teams for years too, definitely before Tabor got here in 2018. Could absolutely say he improved though under Tabor and I wouldn't argue.

 

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3 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Let's give credit where it's rightfully due and weigh the negatives vs the positives. Which position makes the most difference in a game? A good kicker or a coverage unit?

 

Both.  It takes two FGs to offset a TD given up on a return or produced after to a long return.

Tabor didn't fix Santos.  Santos fixed Santos.  He's kicked well in the past then struggled with a groin injury that took some time to recover from.  Then it was all a matter of getting his timing down with snaps and his holder and getting his confidence back. 

If you want to give Tabor credit for sticking with him and helping him to do that fine but Tabor wasn't the guy who made him better.  Santos did that on his own.  Right now he's one of the two or three best PKs in the NFL and I give him all the credit for that.

It's our coverage units who've struggled under Tabor both now and in that past.  Moving CP to a Gunner spot really helped when McManus missed some time due to injuries.  He was also a ST coverage standout.  Both are gone but it's up to Tabor to find the right guys to replace them.  That's his job and so far he hasn't found those guys so coverage has been shoddy.

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I do have a question though.

Why have we spent so much money and high draft picks on TEs then never use them?

Where was Jimmy Graham and his $8 mil per year avg paycheck?

Where was 2nd round pick Cole Kmet with his 1 catch for 6 yards?

Where was Jessie James whose number Fields seemed to have in camp?

Was Jesper Horstead even active?  Holtz?

For an offense that supposedly can't function without top TEs we sure aren't getting much use out of them in the passing game.

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13 hours ago, Sugashane said:

 

Yeah, just went to ESPN and looked at the play by play.

 

Returns

61 yard punt for 14 yard return

61 yards for 13 yard return

52 yards for 11 yard return and a block in the back

50 yards for 23 yard return

63 yards for 9 yard return

48 yards for 14 yard return

62 yards for 24 yards return

 

When you are kicking 48 yards and allow 14 yards on a return and 63 yards for a 9 yard return that shows a big inconsistency in coverage more than anything IMO. Especially when only 1 in 7 is held to under 10 yards on a return.That may mean he needs to sky more to compensate - which is likely a common thing - but I think coverage is worse than the punting in this case. And we know I have zero issues calling POD out for sucking.

I feel like our coverage has been pretty poor on average since the Trestman era.

Madden in his coaching book said kick it as far as you can, if our guys can’t cover it I’ll get different guys. 

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I think the OL deserves a lot of credit for how they bounced back after last week...yes the Lions don't have anyone close to Cleveland's talent level but those long throws from Fields were very well blocked and he had a clean pocket to step into...in the run game we flat out manhandled their front seven by using more zone concepts that fit our guys much better...even Mustipher was sold and Ifedi had a good day mentally. 

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1 minute ago, dll2000 said:

Madden in his coaching book said kick it as far as you can, if our guys can’t cover it I’ll get different guys. 

He repeated the mantra I remember in a broadcast with a Bears punter back when … who was it .. Sauerbrun was being roasted by Bears media for ‘outkicking’ coverage with booming kicks that were getting big returns.  
 

From wiki: Sauerbrun achieved both his greatest success and biggest problems while with Carolina. He was picked for the Pro Bowl to represent the NFC in the 2002, 2003, and 2004 seasons. Sauerbrun also became the first player from either conference since the AFL-NFL Merger in 1970 to lead his conference in gross punting average for three consecutive seasons (2001–2003). However, during the 2004 season, the Panthers were riddled with injuries, and at one point, starting placekicker John Kasay suffered a leg injury, and the Panthers were forced to use Sauerbrun to replace Kasay. Sauerbrun refused to kick unless he was reimbursed for fines he incurred when he was overweight.[3]

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4 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

I think the OL deserves a lot of credit for how they bounced back after last week...yes the Lions don't have anyone close to Cleveland's talent level but those long throws from Fields were very well blocked and he had a clean pocket to step into...in the run game we flat out manhandled their front seven by using more zone concepts that fit our guys much better...even Mustipher was sold and Ifedi had a good day mentally. 

About time we sold Mustipher

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